Mother Jones - Comments for "And Then What?"

"Also, to those of you who have suggested Hamas is somehow 'hiding' in the civilian population, you might be interested to know that Gaza is one of the most crowded places on earth, at about 11,500/sq mi, comparable to Delhi or Beijing."
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Obvious bullshit that only a non-military person would try to sell. Get out a military topographic chart of the area (or even google it) and the amount of empty space in Gaza is still clearly greater than the built up areas.

Militarily, it makes sense for Hamas to mix among civilians. Anything that can complicate Israeli targeting solutions is a plus from Hamas's viewpoint. And trumpeting the death of civilians when Israel does strike is a very useful tool when trying to gain the support of world opinion.

"The longer...that Israel waits to strike a deal, the less "perfect" that deal will be for them."
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Since the stated, unwavering goals of groups like Hamas and Hezbollah are the destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews in Palestine, the Israelis probably feel that there is no deal to be had, perfect or otherwise.

If the world is changing against the Israelis, then it must be changing in favor of unceasing low intensity warfare against the Jewish state, because certainly no one seems overly troubled by it except the Jews. How can that do anything but radicalize the Jewish state further?

Israel's actions are rooted in the past and cannot serve them well.

Posted by: Keith G on 01/06/09

Well said.

We need creative new solutions instead of stupid repetition of things which don't work.

Israel's attack against Gaza has no purpose or goal except to get the current Israeli government re-elected against Netanyahu. What a tragedy. All of it.

The whole situation in Gaza makes a lot more sense when you face up to the fact that basically what's happening is that both sides are Conspiring Against Therapy.

"...the current dictatorship in Egypt."

As opposed to what? The current relatively normal and peaceful democratic politics in some other Arab country?

"The Palestinians are such psychos that Egypt doesn't want them going through their country"
Time to read up on the current relations between Shia politics and the current dictatorship in Egypt.

Israeli Palestinian policy: you step on my foot, I burn your entire village to the ground.
Time for a trip to the international court.

OK, the "why they want the border crossings open" was a rhetorical trick. You know, "Death to the Jews" and all that. The Palestinians are such psychos that Egypt doesn't want them going through their country.

But I was actually asking about the Hezbollah Israel cease fire. In 2006 Isreal went over the top in an effort to rescue two soldiers and by all objective accounts Israel lost that war with Hezbollah. But if the Rocket attacks, military raids and kidnapping of Jews have disappeared in Northern Israel, then it would make sense for Israel to do the exact same thing in dealing with Hamas.

"Oh thanks nepeta, you have no clue what I thought then, but that doesn't stop you from mind raping me with your projections."

I said I could 'imagine' that you were duped. Bad imaginings. Sorry. Although your denial wasn't terribly convincing.

""In a speech at Gaza City's Islamic University, Mr. Haniyeh demanded an end to Israeli military activity in the Gaza Strip, which Hamas seized in June 2007."

For an explanation of why Hamas 'seized' the Gaza Strip in 2007, see my link at 7:47 PM. I promise you, it's good reading.

Dervin,

I'm really glad you asked. As far as I can tell there is no document or transcript of the June truce. I spent about an hour trying to find one. However, there are news reports that describe the promises made by each side. Here, from NPR:

"Both Israel and Hamas had strong reasons to embrace the Egypt-brokered truce: Israel's military attacks were unable to stop the near daily rocket fire from Gaza. In agreeing to the truce, Hamas, for its part, acknowledges the enormous strain sanctions have placed on the group and on the 1.5 million people who live in Gaza.

Mahmoud Zahar, a senior Hamas leader in Gaza, acknowledged those realities, calling the truce a pragmatic move by both sides.

"It's not an optimistic or pessimistic," he says. "You're speaking about a practical agenda: Israelis in urgent need for cease-fire and Palestinians also in urgent need for this cease-fire."

And here, from the Christian Science Monitor, March 13, 2008:

"In a speech at Gaza City's Islamic University, Mr. Haniyeh demanded an end to Israeli military activity in the Gaza Strip, which Hamas seized in June 2007. "We are talking about a mutual comprehensive calm, which means that the enemy must fulfill its obligations," Haniyeh said. "The Israelis must stop the aggression ... including assassinations and invasions, end the sanctions, and open the borders."

As I understand it, Israel did promise that after three days of unbroken truce to 'gradually ease the blockade' and 'gradually' open border crossings with Egypt and the West Bank. Hamas agreed to allow Fatah security to monitor the crossings as well as Egyptian security.

If you don't know why Hamas wanted Gazan border crossings open (NOT BORDERS!) then you haven't been paying attention for the past two years.

It's certainly possible that the Israeli leadership may be primarily concerned about the coming elections and may and lack a coherent strategy. OTOH it's also possible that they simply want to keep their strategy secret from the enemy. That would be pretty normal conduct in any war.

Wait a second, rocket fire diminished substantially is not really keeping up one's end of the bargain. And why would Hamas want to have an open border with a people they think don't have the right to exist?

I'm not asking this as some rhetorical trick, I can't really find the data, but how has the cease fire been working out between Hezbollah and Israel in the North?

Oh thanks nepeta, you have no clue what I thought then, but that doesn't stop you from mind raping me with your projections.

I understand now why you might be so ready to swallow all the propaganda you like to believe in and consider it facts and anyone who disagrees must be a Bush dupe.

(And as it was, no that was Josh Marshall and Matt Yglesias, and I think, perhaps Kevin Drum as well.)