Mother Jones - Comments for "*Vortices"

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Tripp: it seems that everybody with an idea and a website has his/her hand out for money, and the line for money already includes the entire financial sector and Detroit.

The difference is that the financial sector people screwed up a well known "technology" by ignoring the lessons of history. CDS's for example are just a repeat of the "bucket shops" that played a big role in the Panic of 1907 (thanks to the poster who first pointed this out, but who's name I can't remember).

It's as though 21st bridge designers ignored the lessons of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge disaster. Of course with engineers heads would roll, as well they should. With financial geniuses though, the problem is dismissed as "unforeseeable consequences". And since we know that these people are so bright, they have to be given a second (third, fourth ...) chance.

By contrast the alternate energy people are actually making improvements. Windmills work a hell of a lot better than they used to, and solar cells are a lot cheaper and less energy intensive to produce.

Of course alternate energy ideas are over-hyped by their proponents - you don't get visibility and funding by being overly realistic with your headlines. And sure many ideas just don't pan out. But overall there are important, even dramatic, improvements. Definitely a better investment than Wall St. BS.

Stewart,

Yeah, I was thinking exactly the same thing. This 'in theory' stuff is fine but the practical problems can be immense. Also it seems that everybody with an idea and a website has his/her hand out for money, and the line for money already includes the entire financial sector and Detroit.

Sigh.

Three things I see right off is that:
1) if you are harvesting a diffuse energy source, you have a diffuse physical plant...with lots and lots of hardware and connections...which means lots of expense, maintenance, vulnerability, etc, etc.
2) The problem will all alternative energy harvesting I can think of is
that you are out there with Mother Nature...and that means enormous
low-level daily mechanical degradation challenges interspersed with the
times that Mother Nature is *pissed* and she'll trash you and your
little Tupperware projects........
3) things that go jerkety-jerk also go wearity-wear. A water turbine that just spins is a LOT less wear-prone than something that oscillates

Once upon a time in the late 70's, I tried doing solar domestic hot water. Anything that could go wrong, did, even with the best equipment...and the more safeguards you build into the system, the more it costs and the more unreliable it is.
Basic fact of statistics: the more parts you have, the more likely something will fail (think about it). They have found that 2 engine jet planes crossing the atlantic actually have fewer engine failures than 4 engine jets...needless to say, the 2 engine jets are designed to fly on one engine

Neither vortex shredding nor 'resonance' can be solely assigned the blame for the tacoma bridge collapse.

It's the interaction of the two. Read any book on aeroelasticity if you want to understand what happens. http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=jtqDQ2nTvvcC&dq=holt+ashley+Aeroe... by Bisplingoff and Ashley is a classic in the field.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTZ446tbzE
Newsreel (complete with voice over and cheesy music) showing the collapse of Galloping Gertie (Tacoma Narrows) 2:34

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-zczJXSxnw&feature=related
Color footage with no narration 5:56

Always amazing to watch

Most forms of generating electric power have bad environmental consequences, some of which are not obvious at the time.

Like solar power ocean currents are cyclical (annually instead of daily) and ocean currents move around.

I was concerned that 3 knots is an unrealistically high current to expect. But the Kuroshio Current in the western Pacific is 3.5 knots at its strongest.

One catch is that the current is lower close to the bottom. Think of how wind speed is lower close to the ground. And the sweet spots where ocean currents are as high as three knots are often way out in the ocean. So the power would have to be transmitted over a long distance. And repairs to the system would be difficult. It would both be far from shore and in some cases deep in the water.

That said, the English Channel seems like quite a promising spot for this technology. The Bay of Fundy in Canada also comes to mind.

My guess is that meandering currents and difficulties constructing and maintaining the system in deep water will limit this technology to bays and choke points.

Most forms of generating electric power have bad consequences, some of which are not obvious at the time.

Harnessing ocean currents is something of an improvement on solar power since solar is cyclical. There's no power generated when it's dark. Ocean currents are pretty steady.

I was concerned that 3 knots is an unrealistically high current to expect. But the Kuroshio Current in the western Pacific is 3.5 knots, so maybe there are places we can tap into three+ knot currents.

The catch is that the current is lower close to the bottom. Think of how wind speed is lower close to the ground. And the sweet spots where ocean currents are as high as three knots are often way out in the ocean. So the power would have to be transmitted over a long distance. And repairs to the system would be difficult.

That said, the English Channel seems like quite a promising spot for this technology. The Bay of Fundy in Canada also comes to mind.

Not to mention zebra mussels, a type of freshwater clam known to jam water intake systems.

New York has had a pilot project for while now. Some turbines were installed in the East River and they produce power for a supermarket and a parking facility. The manufacturer is Verdant Power.

There are many players and many technologies in this field. This WSJ article gives a good overview.

Anyone see Southland Tales? Fluid Karma!

As "lampwick" stated above regarding barnicles that would certainly colonize those tubes, along with muscles and any other sea floor dwelling creatures that need something to attach to.

Even if those attached creatures don't disable the system, it would certainly lower the productivity.

the cost of monthly cleaning trips down to the ocean floor will certainly increase the cost of the energy. It's one thing to run those tests in bleached water without any organisms interfering; it's another to let nature have its way.

And boffin' the boffins is boffo, if they're both consenting adults.

he word comes from a name of a restaurant in East Anglia. From 1938 and during World War II the British scientists developing radar frequented an eatery called 'Boffin's'.

I dont find the word boffin to be demeaning...=)

The real claim to fame, is his claim to be able to significantly reduce the lower limit of current velocity that power could be economically harvested from. Assuming it proves to be practical, i.e. it can demonstrate a combination of low cost, reliability, and or lower environmental impact, than the alternitives, then it will be important. But, its importance is not is doing something (generating power from current) we can't currently do, but doing it better.

So, if this thing works, it should be less damaging environmentally than turbines, or dams for extracting energy from water flow. I doubt it can supply the world with huge amounts, like the article hypes, but it might be a useful addition.