Mother Jones - Comments for "Apocalypse Ciao: Let the End Times Roll"

Not to start an argument or

Not to start an argument or anything, but you attacked this writer as if she were writing IN FAVOR of collapsitarianism when, in reality, this piece exposes the problems or dangers of collapsitarianism.

didi

These guys mention Kunstler and Orlov. Orlov is indeed in advertising, but Kunstler is the long-time critic (hater? estetik) of suburbia and what he calls the "Happy Motoring" culture of the U.S., and primarily an author and journalist given to hyperbole and bad predictions.estetik burun ameliyatları Nonetheless, lately Kunstler and Orlov have been spot-on. The "collapsitarians nazmi bayçın" are a far cry away from the capitalists and technology religionists discussed in this article. göğüs büyütme ameliyatlarıThey're of two varieties, with some overlap - economic and resource-depletion believers. estetik göğüs ameliyatları The economic collapsitarians believe that America's private and public-sector debts will at some point soon lead to a dollar collapse nazmi bayçın and economic hardship that proves politically and economically unbearable to a population that has known only göğüs küçültme ameliyatlarımaterial abundance. This seems reasonable as a description of cultural context but disputable as economics. karın germe estetiği The second camp points out that fossil fuel energy is the basis of modern civilization and Peak Oil is upon us, with regional peaks in natural gas also occurring. vajina estetiği They also cite data that shows uranium ore will peak within 20 years if we choose nuclear to replace fossil fuels, and coal is not as viable as the "200 lazer epilasyon fiyatları years of supply" believers would like the rest of us to believe as well. Add to that the facts that 1) karın germe estetiği current productions methods for solar panels and wind turbines are heavily energy intensive; 2) plastik cerrahi modern industrial agriculture and food distribution systems are entirely dependent on fossil fuels, 3) saç ekimi globalization that fulfills the best task it could of raising the living standards of the world's poor would only increase the strain on non-renewable resources; and 4) göğüs büyütme estetiği climate change has already and will continue to produce regional disruptions through weather, göğüs dikleştirme estetiği the spread of diseases, pests such as the beetle eating up the Rocky Mountain forests, and strains on the oceans and fresh water sources. göğüs küçültme estetiği Taking account of such actual conditions leads collapsitarians to recognize that a lower standard of living vajina daraltma ameliyatı is pretty much inevitable in the near future, probably two decades at the most, five years at the least. nazmi bayçın Then the question is not hoping that it will happen, or believing something ridiculous like we're nazmi bayçın going to devote our energy to maintaining the Internet and social networking -- nazmi bayçın rather than, say, refrigeration -- nazmi bayçın but rather preparing for and easing the transition in order to minimize human and ecosystem suffering. nazmi bayçın It's a tall order, and one that's generally not even near the radar of most folks. nazmi bayçın But it's likely to be on us before it gets on the radar, and that's the source of the collapsitarians' despair. nazmi bayçın

The figures are made through

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You know better than this, no?

First off, MoJo, can you really not invest in some basic SPAM filtering?

Second, articles like this in publications I genuinely respect like Mother Jones, confound me. Is it sheer laziness to focus on walking caricatures like these guys? Are they the only ones you find through your social circles?

Heffernan may well be a good writer but this piece is not worth the paper, hehem, the pixels it was written on. Apparently, all those who see that the bills for our fossil fueled binge have come due are either run-for-the-hills survivalists, end-of-the-world-partiers, or some other such simplistic caricature.

You know, two things can mutual exist: the simple and the complex. The simple--which any third grader can help you understand, if you need it--is that you can't keep growing ... global economic activity, human population, resource extraction, energy use, atmospheric levels of greenhouse gases, etc. .. on a finite planet without some consequences. Specific predictions may be wrong but that does not make the general trend less true.

The complex: That people might have mixed feelings and mixed responses when they let that simple, but mind shattering, understanding in. It takes courage to face reality, especially when most of us still live in the growth world we've built.

One of the things I admire about Mother Jones is its willingness to ask hard questions, to probe deeper. So, please, get off your @sses and do it.

Collaspsatarians

I find this piece amusing and just another view, like it isn't going to happen...the rabid right wing American capitalists would never allow it. They are all way to busy "stiffing all of us" to let a good thing go. The most recent financial debacle on Wall Street and so many on this site want more???? Amazing! Man has "free will" and if the world implodes someday, it won't be anyone's fault but mankind's. Kind of like poetic revenge and I believe in something better than this after I am gone so no reason to rant with these guys who think they are collaspsatarians...you somedays gotta' be for something sometimes...cut them some slack. Besides, what do the wealthy do hedgefund managers do to make this world a better place???? Can't wait to hear the logical discussion on that question.

"Disinterested academics"?

Hmm. Not reading widely enough. The exact problem here is there are no "disinterested academics". All have been bought up by corporatists/bankers. All who resist are expelled. In some cases (do your own research!) murdered.

In the second place, did you not read Marx? Or did you not read Marx deeply enough? What is happening was predicted a long time ago. Like it or not.

Personally, I'm apt not to like it but there you go. You can't always get what you want.

Organize. Organize. Organize: for the protection of your children and your grandchildren. We are all they have. And that turns out to be true whether the buzz-ism of the day (ie., today's flavor: Ragnorok) survives until tomorrow or not. Corporatism succeeds to exact extent that we are atomized, divided, turned against each other.

Hey, but as my Grandpa said of WWI: the safest place is at the bottom of the trench, digging the latrine.. because when/if they all come back from the attack, they will all want to find the nearest hole to defecate in.

The future

Trust it to evolve, not follow an a priori checklist.

I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords.

Freedom!
Horrible, horrible freedom!

Missing the point

These guys mention Kunstler and Orlov. Orlov is indeed in advertising, but Kunstler is the long-time critic (hater?) of suburbia and what he calls the "Happy Motoring" culture of the U.S., and primarily an author and journalist given to hyperbole and bad predictions.

Nonetheless, lately Kunstler and Orlov have been spot-on. The "collapsitarians" are a far cry away from the capitalists and technology religionists discussed in this article. They're of two varieties, with some overlap - economic and resource-depletion believers.

The economic collapsitarians believe that America's private and public-sector debts will at some point soon lead to a dollar collapse and economic hardship that proves politically and economically unbearable to a population that has known only material abundance. This seems reasonable as a description of cultural context but disputable as economics.

The second camp points out that fossil fuel energy is the basis of modern civilization and Peak Oil is upon us, with regional peaks in natural gas also occurring. They also cite data that shows uranium ore will peak within 20 years if we choose nuclear to replace fossil fuels, and coal is not as viable as the "200 years of supply" believers would like the rest of us to believe as well. Add to that the facts that 1) current productions methods for solar panels and wind turbines are heavily energy intensive; 2) modern industrial agriculture and food distribution systems are entirely dependent on fossil fuels, 3) globalization that fulfills the best task it could of raising the living standards of the world's poor would only increase the strain on non-renewable resources; and 4) climate change has already and will continue to produce regional disruptions through weather, the spread of diseases, pests such as the beetle eating up the Rocky Mountain forests, and strains on the oceans and fresh water sources.

Taking account of such actual conditions leads collapsitarians to recognize that a lower standard of living is pretty much inevitable in the near future, probably two decades at the most, five years at the least.

Then the question is not hoping that it will happen, or believing something ridiculous like we're going to devote our energy to maintaining the Internet and social networking -- rather than, say, refrigeration -- but rather preparing for and easing the transition in order to minimize human and ecosystem suffering.

It's a tall order, and one that's generally not even near the radar of most folks. But it's likely to be on us before it gets on the radar, and that's the source of the collapsitarians' despair.

Soup is good food

About the time all the freestyle socio-economic high-hats get done pontificating and experimenting with people's employment, our political system, and so forth, when a lot of those wild-eyed visionaries end up homeless themselves, eking out a living on bottles and cans and canned soup, and the drug dealers take their fortunes and move back home to some other country, people will sober up, and go for 'the basics', and we'll go for another long, hard slog through another year, and then someone else will come up with some wild-eyed way to do this or that, and peddle their snake oil to the public, everyone will get suckered in again, and the whole thing will repeat itself, on, and on, and ....zzzzzz...

Klaatu marachas necktie

It happened recently

It happened recently. It is called the "Dark Ages", after the collapse of the Roman Empire in Europe. In a modern play-out the biker gangs and drug cartels would become local war lords. Those with guns and ammunition would take what was needed from tech-yuppies on house boats with propane stores and religious cults with food stores.

What I can't comprehend is

What I can't comprehend is if "conventional wisdom" is what got us into this mess, why do so many think conventional wisdom will get us out of it?

"These guys sound more like

"These guys sound more like the inhabitants of an Irish novel from the 50's - grifters spinning a line for a free lunch rather than gifted seers of the future."

Sounds like corporate Amerika to me: "Give us a break on property taxes and we might build a factory in your town."
Once they get the deal, they move all their managers, on our dime, provide a few hundred temp jobs, and keep harping on how blessed they are for providing employment.
Such "leadership" creates bad economic times for its own profit.

Jesus is coming, look busy.

Whose fooling who?

So the collapsitarians round the lunch table were rich - "Their proof of concept is only ever that they themselves are rich. And while that's hard to refute—" were they?
But one of them maxed TWO credit cards to pay a $14,000 bill and had to scrounge for lunch money. Come on! I have way bigger credit lines on several cards without even approaching calling myself rich. And an Amex card with no defined limit. These guys sound more like the inhabitants of an Irish novel from the 50's - grifters spinning a line for a free lunch rather than gifted seers of the future.

The Horror, The Horror, The Horror

I was brought up Mormon, which is the penultimate collapsatarian corporate religion. Because of my upbringing, I have always lived with this apocalyptic expectation of the collapse of civilization. I don't want such a thing to happen, the notions strike me with horror, yet the combined stupidities I witness every day only reinforce the very doomsday predictions I want least to occur. Anybody else notice the nationwide run on "black rifles"? Anyone who is a cheerleader for "collapsatarianism" deserves a good waterboarding because of the suffering that will ensue (that is happening right now, in the tent cities). One thing that stupid fools who shill for the collapse forget is that desperate men forget morals and ethical niceties and do desperate things. Hungry men with hungry children AND arms are a dangerous combination, especially if they organize while they still have cell phones. Now the liberal tendancy for the past few decades is to de-emphasize 2nd amendment rights and attempt to control the spread and ownership of firearms, with the end result that Rural communities (where the propaganda never took) are better armed than suburban communities (which are the hardest hit by the collapse) or urban communities (which often have extensive well armed criminal elements). If and when the carnage starts, suburban liberals are not going to be in good strategic position. After all it has been proven in spades that banning arms doesn't make men peaceful.
If modern men actually listened to prophets (other than Monson that is...Mormon Monson= Mad Charley Manson) then Americans would be mobilized to work towards sustainable permaculture goals and setting up small cottage manufacturing efforts to replace the household goods that will no longer be coming via containership from China. They would be organizing in their communities to provide for mutual assistance and stockpiling useful consumables (medical supplies, stored food, tarps, hand tools and ammo). But convenience is the god of too many Americans and I do truely fear that the rest of society will bar tab itself to wretched horrible doom.