Torches and Pitchforks
| Sat Sep. 6, 2008 8:59 PM PDT
TORCHES AND PITCHFORKS....Joe Klein on the GOP's attempt to play that old time gospel one more time:
Maybe I'm getting old, maybe it's that I've seen this act so often before, maybe it's that the people I talk to when I go out on the road really are having a harder time paying for things like health care, gasoline and college tuition, but I'm finding the Republican attempts to derail the conversation from the actual state of the country really depressing and disgraceful this year. They practice Orwellian politics of the crudest sort. They are trying to sell a big lie — that the election is about the social issues of the 1960s, or Barack Obama's patriotism or his eloquence, or the "angry left," when it's really about turning toward a more moderate path after the ideological radicalism and malfeasance of the past eight years.
Hey, when he's right, he's right. And he's right: it's very depressing indeed watching John McCain immolate both himself and the country in yet another raging round of the culture wars solely because he's decided that it's the only way to put John McCain in the Oval Office.
But I don't think it's going to work. The American public isn't going to buy it this time around, and in the end McCain will, once again, have dishonored himself and have nothing to show for it. It's the story of his life.
Continues Below
Continued From Above
Comments
Scott, I think you're right unless one important thing starts happening immediately.
Obama's campaign needs to start calling this Orwellian doublespeak and lying for what it is. The word LIE is a big word, and they've avoided it as part of staying on the high ground. But this is really the heart America's resentment of the Bush administration. Bush/McCain policies have failed this country, but I don't think most people automatically connect policies to unfortunate circumstances in their lives. It's the fact that the Bush administration has been an incompetent bunch of shameless LIARS. Everyone can see it.
The best way to connect McCain/Palin to the Bush administration and emphasize the need for change is to start calling all of them liars. The evidence is in the public record and is available for anyone to witness every day.
Jon Stewart has started to exploit this. Instead of earnestly listing a tattle-tale summary of Republican crimes and lies, he's just running clips of them telling bald-face lies and message reversals.
"In the end McCain will, once again, have dishonored himself and have nothing to show for it. It's the story of his life."
I would say 'ZING!' except I think this is both flippant and untrue. In Vietnam McCain kept his honor and had something to show for it; in 2000 he kept more of his honor than Bush and was left with nothing to show for it. Back in the 80's he dishonored himself and came away a 'changed man' (or so he said), with a lesson to show for it. I'm no fan, and I hope he drops out of the race tomorrow, but I think this is an unfair and inaccurate charge.
"The American public isn't going to buy it this time around, and in the end McCain will, once again, have dishonored himself and have nothing to show for it."
Unfortunately, there remains a very real chance that McCain will win this election. In which case, McCain will have dishonored himself, Americans will have dishonored themselves, and we will all have four more years of Republican mismanagement to show for it.
Geez, Kevin. Were you born yesterday, or something? They will most certainly fall for it unless -- and this is a huge unless -- the Obama team abandons their inner Dukakis and starts every single day with a brutal attack on John McCain. They can happy-talk their supporters in the afternoon, but they have to start throwing the first punch. And the punches have to be hard. Otherwise the old GOP tactics will work again.
But I don't think it's going to work. The American public isn't going to buy it this time around...
The American public likes it, wants to buy it, but they don't have enough money -- gas and food bills and disappearing home equity used it all up. It isn't as if Americans actually got smarter. Poorer, in this case, may not be wiser, but it acts wiser. There'll be a next time, though.
By getting an extremist out on the national stage and avoiding discussions about just how extreme she is while maintaining her viability as a national candidate, the Republicans are moving the goalposts a little bit. And all the Dems can do by way of comparison is get two centrists out there, fight a crabbed, largely defensive campaign, and barely win the election -- assuming they win. That's my idea of depressing.
In which Kevin attempts to turn legitimate attention to Obama's manifest unsuitability for the Presidency into thrusts in some "culture war".
Nice try, Kevin. But not even those who come here for a comforting escape from the real world are likely to be lulled.
Or are they?
With all due respect, it's the statement that "in the end McCain will, once again, have dishonored himself and have nothing to show for it. It's the story of his life." that is disgraceful. You should retract it. When you read the account of McCain's time in Hanoi (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain#Prisoner_of_war), you can't possibly come to the conclusion that "dishonoring himself and having nothing to show for it" is the "story of his life". That is a profoundly disgusting statement.
It's precisely because of statements like this from his opponents that McCain might win. And irrespective of all the good arguments of the Obama supporters (and there are many) for why the Democrats should win the White House, fair minded people would agree that if this is the way the Democrats are going to run their campaign, they deserve to lose.
"In the end McCain will, once again, have dishonored himself and have nothing to show for it. It's the story of his life."
I would say 'ZING!' except I think this is both flippant and untrue. In Vietnam McCain kept his honor and had something to show for it; in 2000 he kept more of his honor than Bush and was left with nothing to show for it. Back in the 80's he dishonored himself and came away a 'changed man' (or so he said), with a lesson to show for it. I'm no fan, and I hope he drops out of the race tomorrow, but I think this is an unfair and inaccurate charge."
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"The real odds of Obama winning are close to 90%, I think; but Democrats have PTSD from the last two presidential elections, and this causes us/them to lose perspective and turn chicken little at the slightest provocation."
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Good points, both, lampwick.
I'm not "turning chicken" or, um, panicking, but being wary is not a bad idea.
"In the end McCain will, once again, have dishonored himself and have nothing to show for it. It's the story of his life."
John McCain has a dishonor/apologize cycle that has gone back his entire public life. Certainly the time spent as a POW (the only time that he had virtually no independent control over his actions) remains off limits to criticism, but every other period of his life is filled with dishonor followed by regret.
He will lose this election and then regrettably confess his campaigning sins. Meanwhile the country suffers from his divisive and hurtful campaign.
Submitted by J. Michael Neal (not verified) on Sat Sep. 6, 2008 10:31 PM PDT.
Remaining wary is essential for the Obama campaign, but not very important for me. I agree with Kevin: the chances of McCain winning are very small.
Obama-Biden still has a small lead in the overall polls, and a big lead in the state by state polls, but we need to stay on top of this. By doubling down and picking a charismatic ambitious unknown religious fundie, McCain has raised the stakes. Most times political newbies like Palin fade away after their fifteen or so minutes. Once it comes out how she was the Queen pig at the ear-mark trough, or how she got the office of the governor involved in her sister's custody case, or left each citizen of Wasilla with $3000 dollars of debt, she should be toast. Then again, if the Palin-McCain ticket wins, we (and the rest of the world) will be toast.
"It's precisely because of statements like this from his opponents that McCain might win."
Please. McCain put the man responsible for smearing his own family in the name of politics on his campaign staff, and kissed Bush's ass for the last 8 years even though Bush was ultimately responsible for the smear. He left his first wife in a most disgraceful fashion to marry a rich heiress. He was involved in the Keating Five scandal where he tried to pressure regulators to let up on his buddy Charles Keating and his company that owned an S&L that was breaking the law. He basically changes his mind on any policy, depending upon the mood of the day and whether it will get him elected.
Where's that honor, again ? Making it out of the Hanoi Hilton makes you lucky and a survivor, and not automatically an honorable man.
in the end McCain will, once again, have dishonored himself and have nothing to show for it.
Nothing except more houses than he can keep track of and a cushy life the likes of which only a tiny minority will ever experience.
The real odds of Obama winning are close to 90%, I think; but Democrats have PTSD from the last two presidential elections, and this causes us/them to lose perspective and turn chicken little at the slightest provocation.
Quite true. Seeing someone like Bush given two terms has soured me on the country pretty deeply. But not so deeply that I'll give in to the casual cynicism I see from some of the posters here. Sitting around the peanut gallery declaring everything to be hopeless doesn't make you superior. It just makes you irrelevant.
"Kevin's optimism is not founded on any precedent from the recent history.
[snip]
all glory to Bush."
-- gregor
Dang, gregor! Just when I was about to get the best of my insomnia!
Take heart, mate. Obama will win. Unfortunately, he may not want the White House when he gets it. I'm afraid, the American economy may look even uglier in the next seven weeks and go downhill. Voters may put aside racism and everything else for a clear shot at rescue.
Problem is, can an Obama administration rescue us? Maybe not, but a McCain administration surely can't.
My reservations about Obama are no different than many others': The experience factor -- that no amount of spin and self-delusion can ignore.
But, what I have seen in Obama is his capability of finding people who do have experience, and adroitly using them to solve problems. In a nutshell, the challenges to the next administration demand thought, hard thought, and not mindless flag-waving.
There's no other real choice.
If we have learned nothing from the past 2 presidential elections it is that getting out the vote is what wins elections. Everyone in swing states who isn't out there getting voters registered and setting up networks to make sure those people to the polls on election day is just whining.
Work with your local planning office, offer rides to those who don't have transportation. Set up teams to knock on doors on election day to get people out to vote. We aren't going to change the minds of committed Repubs and the Indeps are going to do what they are going to do. Getting Dems registered and to the polls in the swing states is what wins this.
Look at where the Obama camp has already shifted strategy - those are the states in play and if you live in one of those states get out there and do some damn community organizing of your own.
I see at least one positive in this post. Remember all that stomping on Joe Klein that people were doing a few months ago? Well, it worked. He finally, finally saw the nose right in front of his face. It gives me hope that maybe there's a few more of these media sycophants who can be brought back to reality.
As for what Klein said, I too am profoundly depressed by the return of culture war nonsense attacks to the forefront of the campaign. But I'm not sure it's working as well as it did before. Most of the people I've talked to are confused and suspicious about Palin. They got used to being treated as thinking adults and are balking at the sudden change to spoon-fed insults and lies. If Obama gives them a reason to believe him instead of the lizard brains they will do it.
Sorry Kevin, but I think you vastly overestimate the sagacity of the american voter. I also think you vastly underestimate the utter, and completely justified, cynicism of the american voter. I'm convinced that the combination will put McCain in the white house, with or without an October terrorist surprise.
Please can we stop talking about McCain dishonoring himself. How he used to be a maverick. Give me a break. The guy was never a maverick. It is all a show. He gets caught doing something then he apologizes. What a maverick. He holds hearings about things to show the public how much he is for or against his party's position only to get into line after the media moves on. And I can go on and on... Please stop. It is very painful.
The American public isn't going to buy it this time around
If we were talking about say, an RFK or even Joe Biden, I might almost agree with you. But Obama is the first African-American candidate, and one can never underestimate the effect of the subtle (and not so) racism that permeates so much of the American electorate. Like the local public radio caller I heard the other day who professed to being a long-time liberal Democrat but whose "gut feeling" about Obama was forcing her to vote for McCain (never forgetting in this dirty tricks age that she could be a plant, too).
Add to that the usual disenfranchising of Democrats (imagine residents in Ohio Dem districts standing in line for 8 hours to vote when Americans rarely tolerate waiting in line 20 minutes to do anything else) and other fraud, and the "gut feeling" race factor could be even more significant, sad to say.
My prediction: Obama in a squeaker, or a rout. McCain has reminded us who the real bogeyman is - this time in the guise of a hockey mom/ fundamentalist/crazy.
Obama/Biden has become the safer ticket for many undecideds or moderates. Had McCain chosen a Hutchinson or some other moderate female VP candidate, we might have been in trouble. But now the choice is very clear-eight more years of Republican misrule, or a new beginning.
Democrats are suffering PTSD-but it's nothing that a win in November can't cure.
R Porafatto
Always the danger, and you have put your finger on it.
America has changed, but maybe not enough.
Remember how hard it was for JFK (as a Catholic) against 'tricky Dicky' Nixon. And JFK (and LBJ's) mob played as tough and nasty as the Republicans.
Even then, it was a squeaker.
America wasn't really ready for a Catholic president, then, and it may well not be ready for a black one now. And Obama's team doesn't have LBJ and Mayor Daley on its side.
There's no evidence RMN's crew have died and gone to heaven-- their descendants still rule.
What was it about Helen Gahagan 'Pink down to her underwear?'
yes, the Obama campaign should start using the "L (iar)" word, but journalists have a responsibility to use it too: sad to say, for every Drum or Sullivan or Klein there are scores of Broders (look, for example, at his WaPo column today for a classic example of vapid, irresponsible journalism)
IF you dare check out the article by Evan Thomas in the Feb 11, 2008 NEWSWEEK...titled THE HEROISM of JOHN McCAIN..pay special attention to HIS OWN recounting of how he came to be shot down and captured...I'd be interested in what you think of that...
When John McCain stands before God Almighty on Judgement Day and is called to account for slaughtering hundreds of innocent civilians, using violence on dozens of other people, smearing people for political gain and leaving his first wife after her terrible injuries he can just tell God what he is telling us - his political views were just so morally superior to everyone else's, he had to smear, humiliate and kill them. In short, he put his mythical "country" first and abandoned every moral guidepost.
You may not like it, but the McCain legacy comes down to five years as a POW, and 26 years being a do nothing Washington insider He cheated on his first wife, was a member of the Keating 5, and just made a know nothing college dropout his running mate as his first executive decision. Other than that, he believes in a war than is illegal under any international convention, refuses to speak out against torturing 15 year old boys(here the irony gets thick), and says the economy is just fine, thank you.
Yeah, he just drips with honor.
There seem to be two competing narratives:
1) Americans, after eight disastrous years of the Bush administration, are looking for change and will, in the end, vote for Obama in order to accomplish that change.
2) Americans, having voted for GWB twice, and having overwhelmingly supported a disastrous war in Iraq, are looking for a way to avoid responsibility for the condition of the country by finding a way to support McCain and Palin, and avoid voting for Obama.
Now, I will admit, that I hear scenario one more than scenario two -- but I do not believe scenario one at all.
Having watched as Americans allowed the swiftboating of John Kerry, having watched as American allowed their phones to be wiretapped, citizens to be arrested and detained indefinitely, having allowed the torture of both innocent and guilty detainees (both are outrageous), I do not share the faith in my fellow Americans that many others do.
If scenario one is correct, the race will become less competitive and Obama will win in a cakewalk.
But I see the race moving in McCain's direction -- and no amount of truth telling will alter that. Americans believe that they never are wrong -- so voting for Bush was not a mistake, it was simply that Bush screwed up; torture was not the result of a policy decision, but the result of a few bad apples; Republicans are the ones looking out for the interests of the middle class, the fact they tend to agree most often with Democrats is just an evil ploy on the part of the D's to get them into power. And the American public won't let that happen.
(This sounds like a classic "concern troll" post -- sorry. But it is my opinion right now. Let's hope I am underestimating the intelligence of the American voter.)
"It's precisely because of statements like this from his opponents that McCain might win. And irrespective of all the good arguments of the Obama supporters (and there are many) for why the Democrats should win the White House, fair minded people would agree that if this is the way the Democrats are going to run their campaign, they deserve to lose."
Oh, please. Your pearl clutching, while it may make you feel better, is pathetic. The reason Republicans win is because they understand this is hardball.
That's why they'll make up crap about Democrats throwing away American flags and imply all Democrats are not good Americans. They will say or do anything while "honorable" people like you say nothing about it.
I disagree that many voters will not admit that they were wrong. I have heard many people express regret for having voted for Bush. If you remember correctly, many Americans were still extremely frightened of terrorist thrreats and were hesitent to change presidents in the midst of the Iraq "war". Since the changing of the gaurd is inevitable now, I think many will vote for Obama this time around.
One thing we cannot do is give up. Engage in political discussions wherever you go. State your opinions and viewpoints clearly, rationally, and simply. This is not a time to avoid such discussions.
Voter registration for the election is almost over. Work for you local Obama office and talk to young voters. I beieve if we can get them out- The republicans will be done. I don't think the current polls are correct, because they do not count younger voters or those with cell phones- which is a rather high number.
Submitted by John H. Farr (not verified) on Sun Sep. 7, 2008 8:48 AM PDT.
I'm with Kevin. It's not going to work, period. And when the press finally do have a chance to get to Palin, watch out.
We're in kind of a twilight zone now, but that will end...
But I don't think it's going to work. The American public isn't going to buy it this time around...
I'd feel a lot more comfortable with the prediction if Kevin went into his archives and perhaps pointed out he was deeply worried about Kerry/Edwards at this same time point.
Because should the archives show the opposite:
Ugh.
I with Scott and others, up-thread. I think it is working and will continue to work.
American voters will not only fall for it, they will leap to embrace it. They are a dull-witted, bigoted and simple-minded people. They long for dull-witted, bigoted and simple-minded solutions to their problems.
Despite the serial disasters of the last eight years, I do not see this election as fundamentally different from 2000 or 2004. Obama is doing slightly better than Gore or Kerry because he is a better messenger and because he hasn't been around long enough for the right-wing to have completely branded him as unsuitable for the presidency.
> I agree with the others who
> said your comment about
> McCain's life being nothing
> but dishonor was over the top
> and very counter-productive.
Carrying out affair then divorcing wife who remained faithful during POW! years - check. Keating Five - check. Hugging George W. Bush - check. Hiring Karl Rove, the man who engineered a smear campaign against his adopted child - check. Looking with other way while Dick Cheney added a "signing statement" to the torture bill saying that he would torture whenever he wanted - check. Violating the McCain-Feingold _law_ - which you might note is named after himself - check.
Remind about this "honor" again?
Cranky
Submitted by FyodorFish (not verified) on Sun Sep. 7, 2008 5:05 PM PDT.
To echo Obama, "Enough!" Enough with the pessimism (regardless of whether you're concern trolling or actually sincere).
Keep your eyes on the prize: electing Barack Obama as the next president of the United States. We're still two months, let me repeat that, two months away from the election. How many miles do you think Obama-Biden will rack up over those next two months? How many TV appearances? And that's not even counting the three debates. Just watch: the debates will be where Obama will begin breaking away from McCain in the polls.
Until then (and after then): volunteer, give money, do both, do something, but the one thing you shouldn't do? But wallowing in self-indulgent pessimism? No. Absolutely not.
Am I the only one who sees a 24 season four scenario playing out, with Mc Cain assuming the role of Pres. Keeler, & Palin becoming Charles Logan? Rather unknown party backbencher -- Logan, a member of the U.S. House, undistinguished; Palin, a governor of Alaska, inexperience -- with a case of the crazy; Mc Cain dies/become incapacitated early, & Palin without any on-the-job seasoning or real vetting is thrust to the fore. It sounds right.
& if I'm Bill Clinton, I'm doubling-down on personal security. He'll get sniped in this scenario, just like David Palmer.
I agree wholeheartedly--John McCain will be the next president, because the people of our country are too stupid to look at the facts, and require someone else to think for them. As a resident of Georgia, W. walks on water like the Messiah, and the south is not ready to elect a black man.
