Gaza
| Mon Dec. 29, 2008 9:53 AM PST
GAZA....Richard Boudreaux of the LA Times writes that Israel's goals in the Gaza Strip are vanishingly limited:
Instead of boasting that they would "destroy" the enemy, as they did in the case of Lebanon, Israeli leaders set the more modest aim of "improving the security" of terrorized Israeli communities.
...."The army doesn't even have the pretense of neutralizing Hamas' ability to launch rockets. We have tried that before and failed," said Alon Ben-David, military correspondent for Israel's Channel 10 television.
"This operation," he explained, "is directed at Hamas' motivation to fire rockets at Israel rather than its actual ability to do so."
....And it remains to be seen whether Israeli leaders have prepared adequately for the complications that may lie ahead if their army launches a ground campaign against Hamas' 15,000-man paramilitary force, which has drawn its own lessons from Hezbollah's success in the Lebanon war.
If the point of the Gaza offensive is truly just to hit Hamas hard enough that they basically give up, then it strikes me as possibly even more poorly thought out than the Lebanon war. But on the larger issue of what the U.S. response should be, I'm keenly aware of Jonathan Zasloff's point in this post:
All those who insist that the United States should "solve" the problem should explain how. And if they can't do that, then maybe they should take some quiet time.
I doubt very much that the Israeli offensive will do them any good in the long term. But it's also not clear to me exactly what the way forward is at this point. So, for the most part, I'll stay quiet. Needless to say, plenty of other people won't, so I'm sure my voice won't be missed.
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Continued From Above
Comments
Thanks for this post. I was so frustrated in 2006 when the Israeli-Lebanon fiasco was largely ignored by the blogosphere; after a few days of relative silence I see posts by yourself, Ezra, Yglesias, Greenwald and others today, as well as huge contentious debates in the Kos diaries. Good.
What is Israel to do? Permit the barrages from GAZA? Negotioate with HAMAS? See attached link to HAMAS Charter. Note Art. 7. It specifically declares their intent to destroy Israel and kill Jews. This is the reason for the existance of HAMAS.
I propose that we "solve" the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in exactly the same way that we "solve" most other conflicts around the world: we stay out of it and do not supply weapons or aid to either side. From a strategic perspective, this policy is such a no-brainer that I'm surprised it isn't considered or discussed more often.
Ending US military gifts to Israel may not solve the problem of Israeli aggressive territorial acquisition of Palestinian territory, and the Palestinian response to it, but ending the US' $3B a year subsidy of Israel's military would do more than any other act to resolve the conflict created in 1947 by the US led UN. The only other act that the US could do to hasten the end of the conflict would be to defend Gaza and the West Bank as vigorously and as generously as the US defends Israel.
Jim W, If you believe that we should stay out of it and not supply aid or weapons to either side, then the US has quite a lot of tweaking to do to its foreign policy. Israel is THE biggest recipient of US foreign aid. And probably (I don't know for sure) the biggest recipient of US weaponry. Those cluster bombs used in Lebanon were made in the good ole USA.
"vanishingly limited" eh? from the wapo, today:
In the Israeli parliament, Defense Minister Ehud Barak referred to the situation as "all-out war" and told lawmakers the country's military was prepared for more intense action in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip in order to repress Hamas's ability to fire rockets into Israeli territory. The conflict will be "widened and deepened as is necessary," Barak said, according to the Web site of the Israeli newspaper Haaretz.
"What is Israel to do? Permit the barrages from GAZA? Negotioate with HAMAS?"
Gideon,
And what are the Palestinians supposed to do? They are prisoners with borders that do not allow the passage of adequate food, medicines, goods. Negotiation with Hamas is the ONLY acceptable answer, unless that elected government is replaced in future elections. There have been so many excellent programs that bring Israelis and Palestinians together in artistic or social pursuits with much success in fostering friendship. Obviously both sides have legitimate complaints, but in this particular case, as in the bombardment of Lebanon, I blame the Israelis for use of excessive and disproportionate force. I've read that this may be of 'political' value in Israel. I don't know enough about Israeli politics to comment but I hope that isn't one of the incentives here.
Quite right that there's no obvious way forward from this situation.
However, if we go back in time a bit we can see a lot of points where we could have exerted pressure. Almost all of these points are during lulls in the conflict when no one in the US is paying attention and there was no sense of urgency. It's the small things -- proactively addressing fear driven political campaigns, economic integration, border closures, settlements, humanitarian aid, etc. It means actual political engagement -- something completely lacking from the Bush administration repertoire.
For instance the rise of Hamas wasn't a surprise. It was shaped by policies that made the PA look impotent. Breaking this Likud/Hamas symbiosis is something that has to be addressed directly.
The current campaign is part of the run up to the February election. Barak and Livni are trying to out hawk Netanyahu (and it looks like it is working). Bombing as a campaign strategy is something we should at least consider not supporting.
We can't solve the current crisis directly or easily but Obama can lose credibility through his statements. Expressing an understanding of the complexity of situation is critical.
I'm sure the Israeli leaders know their military operations will as usual make matters worse. But they have to do something big and bold if they want any chance of re-election, while Israel moves closer and closer to making a one-state solution inevitable. What a tragedy.
No use debating why, how or when. Those omelets have already been made. All though, there are so many who seem to live for the chance to vilify either the Palestinian or Israeli people. Those who care about peace need to find a workable "what's next. We need to find a way to drain the swamp. To my mind, that means giving Palestinians something to live for instead of something to die for. At the same time, We must find a way to hold leaders of malevolent groups accountable in ways that do not increase Palestinian civilian deaths and poverty. That also means holding Israel to a better, long range focused way of dealing the herd-of-cats reality that is the Palestinian "society".
Not a good time for dreaming of yet another Marshal (type) Plan for yet another devastated people, but that is the way we need to travel.
Nepeta:
As I previously submitted, HAMAS and Hezbollah were founded and exist to destroy Israel and kill Jews. What is there to negotiate? How long it will take for them to acheive their declared goals? As to what the Palestininas can do, permit me to submit; desire a Palestinian state more than they want to destroy Israel! Also, HAMAS, as did the PLO, disavow their intentions of killing Jews and destroying Israel. Further, HAMAS could reverse themselvs in regards to disavowing their acceptance of any of the previous PLO/Israel treaties. Oh yes, cease their barrages into Israel.
Reality Check: WHen Israel departed GAZA, they left behind syagogues and with the assistance of American Jews, a thriving $200m per year hot house agricultural business. On the first day that Palestinians had on their own in Gaza, they destroyed the Jewish houses of worship and totally ransacked the hot houses. It was also the day that the rockets began. They have not stopped since. No blockade nor air assaults back then. Only typical Jihadist short-sightedness and terror.
Gideon,
By all means, I am willing to wish Israel good luck on solving their problem. But, I still don't understand why it is in our interest to be sucked into this mess. Israel as a state has been around for 60 years. It is time for them to grow up and learn how to take care of themselves, rather than constantly whining and begging us for money and weapons. All we get out of our relationship with Israel is the hatred of millions of Muslims around the world, not to mention occasional terrorist attacks against us.
Villify American policy that arms Israel. Villify Americans who serve in the IDF and populate settlements in Occuppied Territories (all territories outside the UN mandated 1947 borders). Demand Americans serving in the IDF and Americans in the settlements be prosecuted with the same laws used to prosecute John Walker Lindh.
And what are the Palestinians supposed to do? They are prisoners with borders that do not allow the passage of adequate food, medicines, goods. Negotiation with Hamas is the ONLY acceptable answer, unless that elected government is replaced in future elections.
Posted by: nepeta on 12/29/08 at 1:20 PM
As you may or may not know, Gaza has a border with Egypt. Presumably, this a country that is filled with people who are allied with the Palestinians and support Hamas.
From Google News:
"Egyptian border guards have opened fire on Palestinians who breached the border to escape Israel's assault on Hamas in the Gaza Strip.
An Egyptian security official said there were at least five breaches along the nine-mile border and hundreds of Palestinian residents were pouring in.
. . .
A resident of the Gaza Strip side of the border, Fida Kishta, said that Egyptian border guards opened fire to drive back the Palestinians."
So what accounts for Egypt's behavior towards their Arab "brothers"? Why doesn't Mumbaric open the borders to ease the suffering of the Palestinian people? Egypt is the second largest recipient of US foreign aid behind Israel. Why doesn't the Left demand that the One cut off those funds like they want to do to Israel?
Gideon, your conflation of Hamas and Hezbollah demonstrates your ignorance. Hezbollah was founded in 1985, and listed as its goals: "putting an end to any colonialist entity" in Lebanon, bringing the Phalangists to justice for "the crimes they [had] perpetrated," and the establishment of an Islamic regime in Lebanon. Today, it can legitimately be considered more a political party than a terrorist organization.
As for what could Hamas and the Israel negotiate? Hamas not seeking the destruction of Israel comes to mind, as does Israel ending its concentration camp treatment of Gaza and the West Bank. Sure, there are some extremists on both sides that desire the extermination of the other, but the majority just want to be able to live their lives and be treated like human beings. We should be encouraging policies that strengthen those folks, not the extremists.
So what accounts for Egypt's behavior towards their Arab "brothers"?
Simple. The American sponsored dictatorship in Egypt takes a dim view of any activist activities that may threaten its hold on power. Hamas are not nice folks and would be stirring up all manner of shit against Egypt's president for life if given a chance, but they are not alone on that count.
So, what's your point?
Every day Israel grows larger and Palestine grows smaller. They were supposed to share the land 0f the "Palestinian Mandate" -it's now Israel 80%, Palestinian 20%
Israel and US preach a 2 state solution but they practice the creeping erasure of the Palestinian people.
People rebel under such desperate circumstances. Let's hope there is some power to get Israel to stop just like NATO stopped the Serbs from attacking Kosovo.
Gideon,
Despite the rhetoric of Hamas' founding charter, I think there is hope that a just two-state solution would weaken if not abolish any militancy by Hamas towards Israel. The issues are exceptionally thorny as you know. But, this from a wiki piece on Hamas: " On 21 April 2008, former U.S. President and 2002 Nobel Peace Prize laureate Jimmy Carter met with Hamas Leader Khaled Meshal and reached an agreement that Hamas will respect the creation of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip areas seized by Israel in the Six-Day War of 1967, provided this be ratified by the Palestinian people in a referendum. Carter had made several other requests, but these were turned down. Hamas later announced publicly an offer for a 10 year hudna with Israel, should they decide to return to their 1967 borders and allow the return of all Palestinian refugees. Several nations originally rejected the plan, but Israel is yet to respond."
As to the reality check, sure, there was vandalism associated with the acquistion of Israeli hot houses. But such vandalism can be expected in US cities during power outages or natural disasters or mob violence. This sort of behavior is irrational but hardly limited to Palestinians.
In any case, the hot houses were repaired and were potentially a great Palestinian asset until the blockade. But now the situation looks like this, reported December 19, 2008 in the Int. ME Media Center:
"The agricultural sector in Gaza is also facing a real crisis; it needs at least 150 tons of gas for heating, it also needs 5000 tons of fodder each month, the lack of electricity is threatening nearly 2 million eatable birds, 2 million chickens. There are fears that 5000 cows, 60000 sheep, and 20000 goats will die.
Bakeries totally stopped as they have no spare parts, no fuel or electricity. The army bulldozed agricultural lands and hothouses causing nearly 11 million US dollars in losses. Other loses due to the siege and Israeli attacks are estimated by 71 million USD."
IMEMC
Chicounsel,
See Keith G's response to your question as well as your own observation: " Egypt is the second largest recipient of US foreign aid behind Israel." Think the US might have a little influence on Egypt? And what would happen if Egypt did allow Palestinians an escape route? It wouldn't be able to handle the huge influx of Palestinian refugees nor are they wanted, despite being Islamic brethren.
how many American tanks/bombs/warplanes do the United states have to supply to the Israeli's before they take over all of the middle east? how many tanks/bombs/warplanes do the palistinians have? ZERO--none.
Talk about a terrorist state! Israel is just that! Isnt zionism great?
Israel is screwed, Hamas will bomb Israel if Israel does nothing, and Europe will approve. Hamas will bomb Israel if Israel retaliates proportionately and Europe will condemn. Hamas will bomb Israel if Israel retaliates dis-proportionately aggressive and Europe will condemn.
European Approval is nice, but it's not that nice.
Until Hamas and the rest of the Arab world need to offer Israel real strategic gains for good behavior.
What amazes me is that both Republicans and Democratic leaders do nothing except say the same things blah blah blah... "ceasefire, historic support of the State of Israel, defend itself, terrorist group Hamas, 2 state solution, etc. etc. etc." As the old saying goes the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Palestinians, Israelis, American leaders... absolutely all doing the same things... getting the same results....death and instability. Who benefits? The extremist political groups on both sides. In the USA of course all politicians benefit... as they simply all say the same thing.
Great discussion, all.
With all due respect to Mr Zasloff, his request reminds me of the final episode of Seinfeld: as we gather around the camera adding dry commentary to the violence we witness, we are in turn being watched. And judged. How indignant will we be when we're taken to task for our inaction?
Actually, leftymn, it seems that George Bush decided early on not to do much of anything about the Israeli/Palestinian situation, unlike Clinton who engaged in lots of diplomacy. The results of both policies were pretty much the same (endemic low-level conflict), but the policies were quite different. Bush's policy was less work, though I don't know if that counts as a plus or a minus.
Note to Kevin: Silence is complicity.
It's amazing that you can muster the courage to opine about all sorts of matters, many of them quite obscure, and yet you swallow your tongue whenever it comes to the I-P conflict. A bankrupt position, if I ever saw one.
What is the U.S. interest in supporting the Israeli attack?
Israel cannot stop the rocket attacks and they don't want to re-occupy Gaza, so instead they choose to employ air power on a densely populated region. The result will be thousands of civilian casualties who have nothing to do with this conflict. So if a bomb goes off in a NYC subway, everyone will know the justification.
I hate almost everything Hamas stands for and I really wish the best for Israel as a state. But this response is immoral and I can see no American interest in supporting it.
Here's some insight.
http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Lobby-U-S-Foreign-Policy/dp/0374177724
The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy (Hardcover)
by John J. Mearsheimer (Author), Stephen M. Walt (Author)
As long as we put Israel's interests over our own, we will be fighting their wars and threatened by their enemies. Is there anyone who can't see a relationship between 9/11, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc., and our unqualified support of Israel and our blindness toward the injustices done the Palestinians?
After 9/11 did we hesitate to go to Afghanistan after Al Qaeda?
If Israel didn't go after the people shooting rockets at them then I'd think they were crazy. Remember too that the moment the 6-month cease fire ended the rockets began and this is a new kind of rocket with greater range.
It isn't the ultimate solution, but it must be done or Israel is finished.
Ultimately the peace-loving people of Israel and of Palestinian areas must agree together that the militants are unacceptable. They must police their own or accept that the other will do it -- and that will not result in another round of nation-state warfare.
It's been true of every Israeli leader for years now. They are in office fighting this war and over time they begin to realize the only solution is a peace treaty relationship. It's the militants who continue to stir up the trouble. Some force has to keep them sufficiently apart or kill the crazies.
I suggest a DMZ or, perhaps better named, a free fire zone, where anybody between Israel and it's neighbors would be considered a combatant. The Golan Heights were once in that state (IIRC) and it worked pretty well. The problem with Gaza is rockets have greater range and the area is small to begin with.
Force is required. When the bully kills you kill him and it is a kind of justice.
How Israel goes about this to minimize injury to peaceful people is the trick.
Here's an excellent piece by Daniel Levy of the New America Foundation concerning the many mistakes taken along the way by all parties up to this point as well as constructive ideas along with necessary actions to be taken now. As Levy says, the US is into this up to its eyeballs, and as a decidedly negative factor in the process, particularly during the Bush administration and its GWOT.
Daniel Levy
The IRA killed over 600 British soldiers but we never bombed Dublin or shelled Londonderry. We wanted peace and we got it. Israel does not want peace, it wants land and the US supports it blindly.
Of course, it only took you a little while to get to that point. Starting with Henry II in 1167, Cromwell, the Potato Famine, Parnell's failed attempt to get Home Rule....
Don't get too smug about how easy it was.
Don't our beloved allies the Saudi's provide funding for Hamas while we provide funding and weapons to Israel? If this is the case, why don't we get the Saudi's involved in the discussion of wwhat to do about terrorist groups and get all the players at the table instead of just ignoring the obvious!
It isn't the ultimate solution, but it must be done or Israel is finished.
The ultimate solution... that's a revealing turn of phrase, in the context of ethnic warfare involving Jewish people. I wonder if you are ignorant of history, or simply uncaring.
re: "As you may or may not know, Gaza has a border with Egypt. Presumably, this a country that is filled with people who are allied with the Palestinians and support Hamas."
That's right, all these arabs are the same, just like all those folks that come from Mexico are the same. Ignorant. Are you aware of the view held by the Egyptian government toward the brotherhood ?
Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada,[11] the European Union,[12][13][14][15] Israel,[16] Japan,[17] and the United States,[18] and is banned in Jordan.[19]
See Wikipedia (Hamas) for full sources:
11. Keeping Canadians Safe, Public Security and Emergency Preparedness Canada, National Security, Listed entities. Accessed July 31, 2006.
12. "Council Decision" Council of the European Union, December 21, 2005
13. EU declares Hamas terrorist organization Deseret News (Salt Lake City), Sep 7, 2003 by Frank Bruni New York Times News Service
14. Hamas: Government or Terrorist Organization? by Adam Davidson
15. EU blacklists Hamas political wing
16. The Financial Sources of the Hamas Terror Organization (Israel MFA)
17. Japan's Diplomatic Bluebook 2005 states that it has frozen the assets of "terrorist organizations, including... Hamas."
18. "Country reports on terrorism 2005", United States Department of State. Office of the Coordinator for Counterterrorism. US Dept. of State Publication 11324. April 2006. p 196
19. Karmi, Omar. "What does the Hamas victory mean for nearby Jordan?", The Daily Star, February 18, 2006
Israel pulled out all their settlements in the Gaza strip to enable the inhabitants to build autonomy. Money was poured into Gaza. Instead of industry - tunnels. Weapons instead of Hospitals, terrorists training instead of universities. Rockets are fired on Israeli towns any hour of day or night. How long would your government wait once a neighboring country start to send missiles against it? How about a terrorist movement?
"I doubt very much that the Israeli offensive will do them any good in the long term. But it's also not clear to me exactly what the way forward is at this point. So, for the most part, I'll stay quiet. "
Kevin, I think you let yourself down here. If someone was about to do something which you expect would not do much good, but would also involve killing lots of people and creating hatred against the United States, I would expect you to speak very forcefully against it, even if you did not have a better long run suggestion. I certainly think you would do so if the US treated an Iraqi township the way Israeli is treating Gaza. So no ducking out, please.
Of course there is no solution. Peace and retaliation are incompatible concepts, and until either the Israelis or Palestinians or both admit such, it will continue as it is.
The actions of both sides are wearing a bit thin, IMO. Enough is enough!
If Israel didn't go after the people shooting rockets at them then I'd think they were crazy.
The Palestinians were very crazy for not going after the European Kapos who stole their nation and forced them out of their homes, but they did not receive billions annually in American military aid.
Canada, the European Union, Japan, and the United States should list Likud and Mossad as a terrorist organizations.
Any aid from the U.S. ought to include the stipulation that there be no marriage restrictions between Israelis and Palestinians, something I believe Israel doesn't allow. It may seem a trivial thing, but from a cultural perspective anything that functions to obliterate the 'us' versus 'them' mentality might have some impact over time.
"Israel pulled out all their settlements in the Gaza strip to enable the inhabitants to build autonomy."
Then with the connivance of Mubarak they proceeded to the blockade Gaza creating the largest concentration camp in history.
Anonymous, are you the same 'Anonymous' that posted at 8:45 this AM? Do you accept that there are two sides to this particular coin? If indeed Israel created a concentration camp for Palestinians, then isn't terrorism a rational response? I've been reading recently about American piracy against the British during the Amer. Rev. Were these early Americans terrorists? Do you think that 'negotiations' with the British could have successfully led to American nationhood? In the real world terrorism is the only weapon the weak have against the powerful. And moral equivalency doesn't stand when terrorism is measured against modern military power, e.g., see Iraq, US invasion of.
"The only other act that the US could do to hasten the end of the conflict would be to defend Gaza and the West Bank as vigorously and as generously as the US defends Israel."
____________
Careful what you ask for. Offering protection to Hamas would necessarily involve our policing their actions as well. Since Hamas seems determined to continue shooting at Israel whenever the mood strikes, we'd be forced to stop them.
"Obviously both sides have legitimate complaints, but in this particular case, as in the bombardment of Lebanon, I blame the Israelis for use of excessive and disproportionate force."
________________
What exactly is the proportionate response to weeks of rocketing from Gaza? Can anyone imagine that kind of thing being tolerated by any country in the world? If it's true that Israeli actions radicalize Palestinians, isn't the reverse also true?
"Don't our beloved allies the Saudi's provide funding for Hamas while we provide funding and weapons to Israel?"
_______________
We get along well enough with the Saudis, but nobody should think we're that close. Besides, most of Hamas' direct support comes from Iran, just as Hezbollah's does.
