The OLC Memos

| Thu Apr. 16, 2009 11:49 AM PDT

It looks like the Obama administration will be releasing those Bush-era OLC torture memos after all.  Statement here.  Good for them.  Also this:

In releasing these memos, it is our intention to assure those who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice that they will not be subject to prosecution. The men and women of our intelligence community serve courageously on the front lines of a dangerous world. Their accomplishments are unsung and their names unknown, but because of their sacrifices, every single American is safer. We must protect their identities as vigilantly as they protect our security, and we must provide them with the confidence that they can do their jobs.

Generally speaking, I think I agree with this — though there might be specific circumstances where prosecution is called for regardless of legal guidance.  I can't honestly say that I base this on any kind of coherent principle, though, and I'm not entirely happy I feel this way.  It just seems as if tackling the practical issues involved in figuring out who did what, and under what circumstances, is too vast an undertaking for too small a probable return.  So, reluctantly, I think Obama's decision is probably for the best.

But I'm going to think about this some more before I pretend my opinion is set in stone.  In the meantime, feel free to slag away in comments.

UPDATE: The ACLU has all four memos here.

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Comments

justice

too vast an undertaking for too small a probable return. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Of course, when speaking of justice and the killing and maiming of prisoners we must examine the rate of return on our efforts. For instance, if someone is running around gutting homeless whores just how much time and effort do you really want to expend when what you might have to show in return potentially pleases so few people?

repeating myself

A quick crosspost of a comment related to this that I had just made over at your old home: What the torturers did is abominable, however, there's no question but that they never would have done this without the orders coming down. George Tenet was very concerned -- even paranoid -- about the possibility that CIA folks would be hung out to dry over this kind of stuff, and he went to great lengths to ensure that orders relating to coercive interrogations were explicitly spelled out. I appreciate the moral bankruptcy of the "I was just following orders" defense, but going after the little fish would do more harm than good. It would almost certainly turn the steady stream of operatives leaving the Agency into a full-on exodus, compromising further our already weakened ability to gather intelligence, while leaving the real villains to continue peddling the same disgusting arguments that began the entire mess.

Better to go under than live

Better to go under than live that. Yes, better than I be killed by a fucking dirty bomb than that my country tortures and that the people at the top who ordered it and the people at the bottom who wielded the whips go free.

Those who relied on advice versus those who gave it

I'm hoping there is a distinction at DOJ between the field agents who are the subject of the no-prosecution decision, and the principal policy enablers like Gonzales and Yoo and Addington. Because if we are going to turn a blind eye to the latter, the international community surely will not, and someday the chickens will come home to roost.

What the torturers did is

What the torturers did is abominable, however, there's no question but that they never would have done this without the orders coming down. Just as there is no way police officers would ever use excessive force unless having orders from above? But I don't understand Kevin's sentiment that the little fish need be identified to get to the bottom of this. Torture was institutionalized, and as an institution, the little fish are irrelevant. The real issue is who green-lighted enhanced interrogation, and do we prosecute them. It's the decisions of RUmmy, Ashcroft, Bush, Cheney, etc., that need to be exposed here.

Pathetic. This is merely a

Pathetic. This is merely a variation of the Nuremburg Defense. How far we've fallen....

Exactly like Nuremburg

In my opinion, they should go after the small players as well. In the future, some other President and his or her advisers will decide that something really isn't torture. You want the small players at that point in time to look at their supervisors and their legal opinions and say: "Remember those poor fucks at the end of the Iraq War? They were told they'd be covered, too. You want this bad guy tortured? Then you and that lawyer can do it, 'cause I won't." At the same time, we really need the anti-torture statutes in civilian and military law to be update to specifically say: if one of your subordinates tortures somebody, you are subject to be punished for torturing, just as if you did the act. The prisoner dies under the question, and you have committed a capital crime.

It might be best not to

It might be best not to prosecute or even investigate. However, the statement "it is our intention to assure those who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice that they will not be subject to prosecution." is totally unnacceptable. The Obama administration has now declared that opinions of the OLC ought to determine whether or not there is an investigation *even* if the OLC wrote them in bad faith. This gives OLC opinions the force of law. If employees of the executive can "rely ... on opinions from the Departement of Justice" then the executive is supreme and can brush the constitution, the law and supreme court opinions aside by pretending to interpret them as saying what the supreme executive wants them to say. the deleted qualifier "in good faith" does not imply that the Justice Department must write its honest opinions in good faith. It refers only to the "good faith" of the subordinates who follow orders. Obama is making opinions public, but does not commit to making all future opinions public (and couldn't bind a future President anyway). In fact, the explanation of why the 3 memos are being public makes it clear that it is definitely not Obama administration policy to make future OLC opinions public. Thus we have a body subordinate to the President with the power to arbitrarily rewrite the law. This is not bipartisan consensus policy. Thus Obama has decided to attempt to eliminate the rule of law and the principle of divided government and checks and balances. He might not succeed, but I don't see why not. If actions taken in good faith following OLC opinions are not to be prosecuted (good faith by the actors not the OLC) then there is nothing left. In particular the Supreme Court is no help. If the OLC can rewrite the constitution and the laws, then it can rewrite supreme court opinions. Supreme court decisions are important because they establish precedents, not because of the resolution of the particular case. The OLC can make a plainly dishonest secret interpretation of Supreme Court precedent. If no one can be punished for acts which the OLC dishonestly claims are constitutional, legal and consistent with Supreme Court precedent, then we are not protected by the Constitution, the law or the Supreme Court. There was no need for Obama to abandon the constitution and the idea of constitutionalism. He could just have ordered his subordinates to not investigate or prosecute without appealing to the OLC. the English legal tradition includes prosecutorial discretion and the barrier between the President and career prosecutors at DOJ is a tradition, not a requirement of the constitution. By arguing that OLC opinions, no matter how clearly written in bad faith, are decisive, Obama decided that the law must bow to the power of the OLC which is subordinate to the President. I'm actually not worried about what he will do with his recently claimed absolute power. However, if there is a bipartisan consensus that the executive can't be punished for breaking the law, his successors will have absolute power too. I think that the political advantage of publicly promising not to investigate Bush administration crimes does not justify the destruction of the constitution and the rule of law.

Note the "Good Faith" part...

Reluctantly, I tend to agree, but this should only flow downhill. Those responsible for the manufacture of those noxious opinions should find no solace here. The members of the inner circles of the administration who made it mandatory for their pliant lawyers to torture the constitution before we began torturing people must face the legal consequences of their actions.

Kevin: "I can't honestly say

Kevin: "I can't honestly say that I base this on any kind of coherent principle, though, and I'm not entirely happy I feel this way." I thought that the "I was only following orders" defense for war crimes was settled in Nuremberg. Perhaps that's the principle you're trying to suppress and that's why you're not entirely happy. Cognitive dissonance is a bitch. Obama is dead wrong on this and you know it. It's shameful that your liberalism can be so shallow.

Torture is okay if

Torture is okay if government legal counsel say it's okay? What a horrible man you are Kevin Drum. I hope your cats run away.

On the right path

From the beginning I've argued that ALL the details about the administrations "enhanced interrogation techniques" (AKA War Crimes) need to be brought into the light of day, whether through an active DoJ investigation, a truth commission, or just releasing the relevant docs to the "private sector" of investigative journalism. But at some point the administration needs to step in and issue pardons for the bit players, and maybe even for the senior officials who ordered these actions. It's an uncomfortable compromise, since just letting these actions disappear would send a horrible message to future administrations: in times of trouble do what you want and those who follow will cover your tracks. Such a mentality leads to truly ugly results, such as Argentina's Dirty War. But intelligence and military officials cannot be questioning every order and constantly looking over their shoulders either. For those who think this goes too light in terms of punishment, consider that none of these people will be able to travel abroad safely again and it's likely that Cheney, Addington, Feith et al. will down down in the history books as war criminals (Yoo, on the other hand, will go down as a war criminal AND an idiot)

Obama states that “we have

Obama states that “we have taken steps to ensure that the actions described within them never take place again.” Is that true? I know the President has taken steps to ensure that his administration will not torture. I was never concerned about that. My concern is with what happens when he leaves office. What has the President done to ensure that no future administration tortures (or at least to erect strong safeguards against it)? I’m not aware of his having done anything in this regard. Obviously it’s very difficult to set limits on what a future cynical or lawless administration might do. But that is precisely the argument for vigorous prosecution of the Bush administration lawbreakers. It may be that the only effective deterrent to presidential lawlessness is the threat of prosecution by the next president. Obama’s statement does not definitively preclude prosecution. It only swears off prosecution of people who “carried out their duties relying in good faith” on DOJ legal advice. That leaves open the possibility of prosecution of anyone acting in bad faith – including the policy makers who commissioned bogus legal memos and the people who furnished bogus legal memos on demand. But the statement certainly does nothing to affirmatively indicate that anyone will be prosecuted (or even officially exposed and criticized). Again – I simply don’t know the answer – has the President done anything (yet) “to ensure that the actions described within [the torture memos] never take place again”?

Well, with the release of

Well, with the release of these memos, maybe we can ask Obama to release the OLC memo where they concluded that the bill to give DC a voting member of Congress was unconstitutional. Maybe we can find out why AG Holder is refusing to follow the legal advice of his own Department and instead, supports passage of this now clearly established unconstitutional piece of legislation.

big fish or fail

So, by international law the US morally has the right and obligation to go after the citizens of other nations who committed torture and to have them hanged, but when its own citizens commit such acts they go scotch free? The law of the victors after all then? And, as Robert Waldmann laid out, down this route lays absolute power for the executive, i.e. the President. Maybe Obama attempted to split the difference here, but if he doesn't go after the big fish now, the outcome is an utter fail. No wonder you can't base your consent on any kind of coherent principle, Kevin.

I just thank God some of you

I just thank God some of you guys weren't living in South Africa during the transition from apartheid. Imagine if the black South Africans had insisted on going down the path so many of you are so hung up on? I'll forever be gratetul to Madiba Mandel for understanding the times no matter how painful it was. For what it's worth, there's no way in hell you can compare what went on during the Bush 'regime' to the apartheid era!

Only vigilantes can bring

Only vigilantes can bring justice to CIA lawbreakers.

"I can't honestly say that I

"I can't honestly say that I base this on any kind of coherent principle, though, and I'm not entirely happy I feel this way." Funny how, when it comes to letting lawbreakers get away with it, it's hard to base your decision on coherent principles.

The real issue for me is

The real issue for me is whether this little squabble about whether the little fish should be punished is going to be used as cover while the big fish swim away. I am afraid that the fact the media attention is directed at the little fish story means Rummy, Addington, Yoo, Cheney, Bush and the rest at the top are going to skate. A sad day for America.

Leaving aside the politics

Leaving aside the politics of it, as a practical matter it is very difficult to imagine a jury of ordinary citizens convicting relatively low-level CIA personnel for doing something that the U.S. Department of Justice had stated was legal in writing. Mistakes of law are typically not a defense to criminal prosecution, and maybe you get a judge to keep the memos out of evidence, but advice of counsel is a defense in at least some circumstances (although very narrow ones), and if I were a prosecutor I would not like my chances with a jury on these facts.

I have to agree with Kevin:

I have to agree with Kevin: This is one of those uneasy least-of-evils situations, but the calls for prosecutions, particularly if by extraordinary process, verge uncomfortably close to judicial political revenge. In principle, nothing is more honorable for a republic than to clean up its own messes. But in practice, proscription tends to be followed in due course by counter-proscription. It did not work out so well for the Roman republic, and probably wouldn't for ours.

Ridiculous

Other than waterboarding, the interrogation techniques mentioned in the Zubaydeh memo are laughable (although he was wounded, which changes things somewhat). If I was a trained, true-believer terrorist and someone slapped me or put me in a box with a caterpillar, I'm sure I'd laugh. Despite what the memos say, stress positions and sleep deprivation are dangerous--they can induce heart attacks. BushCo were torturers, but as usual, not very good torturers.

It depends. One of my worst

It depends. One of my worst fears is moths. When I see one I freeze up if it's close or slowly edge away. It can't hurt me, but I am terrified of them. If I were in a very small enclosed space with moths, especially in the dark where I would only hear them flapping or feel them, I would probably go mad in a few hours. As the memos said, everyone has different fears. Mine is Mottephobia.

Torture and Nuremberg Defense

Kevin, it very strongly appears to me that you are endorsing the discredited "Nuremberg Defense", and giving a pass to anyone other than very top officials to engage in torture with impunity. Please address.

Similar to anon @3:23

Similar to anon @3:23 If the low level fish, was following what he sincerely thought, and could reasonably have thought were legal orders, then ... But, that is something that the judge/jury should be able to sort out on a case by case basis. And to the extent that legal opinions and orders partially absolve (or at least constitute extenuating circumstances) for the little fish, the onus of producing and/or transmitting such orders ought to increase for the big fish.

From Ken Silverstein over at

From Ken Silverstein over at Harpers: "Five years ago, the Securities and Exchange Commission opened an investigation into possible violations of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act by a number of major American energy firms operating in Equatorial Guinea. The FCPA bars payments to foreign officials to win business. It now appears the SEC has dropped the investigation and will not bring charges against the firms involved." Just more coherent American principle.

Guantanamo .v. 'Black sites'

As far as I know the behaviour of CIA personnel in foreign 'black sites' is the basis of the instructions in these memos. Maybe the actions of CIA officials who stuck to the 'letter of the law' as they were informed should be immune. However, what these memos reinforce is the fact that the techniques used came straight from the military's SERE playbook. That's the training US Servicemen get in order to withstand torture techniques the United States expects from totalitarian regimes who have no respect for human rights and the Geneva Conventions if they should be captured. So if this stuff went on at Guantanamo - a military base - what were the interrogators who had experienced SERE thinking? And how does a knowledge of the 'torture' US servicemen gain at SERE square with the Uniform Code of Military Justice - which outlaws 'torture'? This isn't a buttoned down legal theory, and I'm not a lawyer, but it would be sure interesting to know.

Whatta loada carp

This will never happen again?! Because there are no repercussions and Obama says so? Go ahead, pull the other one. Once again power trumps everything, including the law, which serves power and not the other way around. This is why people detest lawyers - the whole 'justice' thing is built on lies and nice sounding fairy tales. People authorize torture and profit from it. People damage the world economy and profit from it. There is no justice for those with power. Tell me I'm wrong. I dare you.

Torture and Nuremberg Defense

Yes, what about the Nuremberg Principles? You Americans were pretty keen on using them after WWII. You wrote them didn't you? Following orders was NOT a defence (Principle IV) back then.

We need some prosecutions

Admittedly, I am torn on the idea of prosecution. The Abu Gharib prosecutions were a disaster - find the absolute lowest people in the chain of command, appoint judges who refuse to allow evidence of orders from above, and then prosecute them. However, if we don't prosecute anybody - which I am not sure Obama or you meant - I think it is a carte blanche for more law-breaking by the executive branch. My other concern is that it makes the "I was only following orders" defense allowable - something that was refuted during the Nuremburg trials. I certainly think those who implemented this policy - including those still in CIA, White House officials, and former DOJ officials - I don't believe a blanket immunity should not be given - if for no other reason than to force cooperation for testimony for any prosecutions from those who "were on the front-lines". Plus, I really believe that prosecutions set the tone that illegal activity will not be tolerated and gives those at the operational level the power to refuse illegal orders. The best argument for prosecution and investigation was made by Mark Danner in Sunday's New York Review of Books. If we don't prosecute anyone who was in the power to make decisions, then we will see a repeat sooner rather than later for, unfortunately, another attack on Americans will likely occur and the same dark impulses we saw in 2001 will come back with greater force the next time.

torture

The release of the torture memos today pretty much convinces me that there isn’t much chance that Obama and Holder intend to go after high officials in the Bush administration for their war crimes. If one was serious about prosecuting Bush / Cheney / Yoo/ Addington et al, you would want to keep lower-ranking people in the CIA scared stiff and worried that they too might be charged with crimes. That way you’d have some leverage to get informative testimony out of them—you could do some plea bargains in exchange for critical testimony against the higher-ups. By excusing all CIA personnel, the Justice Dep’t. has lost a major tool for prosecution.

Nuremberg Kevin, you owe

Nuremberg Kevin, you owe your readers a discussion of why this is NOT like Nuremberg. I'd be a bit happier with the decision if: a) Holder moved to try and/or disbar all the lawyers responsible for these memos. b) Apologies (or what have you) were made to the Lyndie Englands. Many small fry were fried, while the big fish, once again, are rewarded for the horrible behaviors. Ah, white collar criminals Kevin....

Obama did good - clearly

Obama did good - clearly state that the United States no longer engages in these activities and condemns them, and focus clearly on who is actually responsible, rather than dragging this out and having operational people in the field get targeted to get higher fish and so on, declaring straight simple we will prosecute no operational personnel or people "down the line", and releasing the top-level memos to basically eliminate any incentive to do so. If you have a beef, it's with the individuals who formed the policy, and the lawyers who incompetently and incomprehensibly justified it, because we are talking about various gray areas short of death, and people in the field ambushed with orders from the final authority and complex legalese to back it up, this isn't a Nuremberg situation, no lives were being taken with these actions, at least described in these released memos, and anywhere that American personnel did willingly engage in acts leading to the death of a captive, those individuals should be dealt with separately and with the full gravity of law.

Having said that, this was

Having said that, this was torture, but the individuals responsible are the ones who made the orders, who set the policy, who actually reasoned through this. For an individual down the line, it's one thing to say you should know as a matter of conscience not to kill or slaughter, but quite another to assert you should know what the actual dividing line is between legitimate counterintelligence techniques and illegitimate. That's why we have a handbook, and people on high setting policy, being leaders, and consulting lawyers to make justifications, if even as dark amusingly insane these particular idiots were in this case.

Obama released memo

Kevin, these is the type of commentary I expect to read in NEWSWEEK or TIME. I think you are writing for the wrong publication.

I think I agree on no

I think I agree on no prosecutions, but it would have been nice if being a torturer didn't seem like a good career move at the time. A feeling I got from reading "The Dark Side" is jumping on the torture wagon at least wouldn't hurt, even if you knew it was illegal, immoral, and useless. Jesus, one of the captcha words is "tenets."

Consider the entire story....

At the same time Obama was making public redacted memos (i.e., censored to put forth only what he wanted), his national security chief, whom he appointed, was saying: “High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country,” According to the NY Times, “Admiral Blair’s assessment that the interrogation methods did produce important information was deleted from a condensed version of his memo released to the media last Thursday. Also deleted was a line in which he empathized with his predecessors who originally approved some of the harsh tactics after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. “I like to think I would not have approved those methods in the past,” he wrote, “but I do not fault those who made the decisions at that time, and I will absolutely defend those who carried out the interrogations within the orders they were given.” http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22blair.html?_r=1&hp How come this never came out last Thursday? And who defines “torture” anyway? Every young American that went to Boot Camp was tortured by some people’s definition. I played football and at every practice someone was getting their butt whacked or body slammed. And “two-a-day drills” when it’s 100+ outside – now that’s torture! Look, these two animals killed 3000 of your fellow Americans and they would love to do more. They do not follow the Geneva Convention. They do not play fair. Both walked away from their interrogations with all body parts and full mental capacities. Now compare that with where they come from… like slicing the neck of a poor newsman and posting it on the internet. And why is it that the same people that decry putting a mass murderer in a confined space with a bug have no problem ripping out and killing a live human fetus? I don’t get it.

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