Congress and the CIA
| Fri May. 15, 2009 10:12 AM PDT
The CIA says Nancy Pelosi was briefed about its interrogation methods. Pelosi says they're lying. Bob Graham, the former Senator with an 
anal retentive habit of tracking his movements to the minute in a spiral notebook, says they're lying too: the CIA claims they briefed him on four occasions, but Graham's notebook says different — and after he confronted them about this, they caved. There was only one briefing, and Graham says waterboarding was never mentioned. Jim Fallows:
Part of the payoff of reaching age 72 and having spent 38 years in public office, as Graham has, is that people have had a chance to judge your reputation. Graham has a general reputation for honesty....If he says he never got the briefing, he didn't. And if the CIA or anyone acting on its behalf challenges him, they are stupid and incompetent as well as being untrustworthy. This doesn't prove that the accounts of briefing Pelosi are also inaccurate. But it shifts the burden of proof.
Agreed. If the CIA could screw up — or lie, or whatever — that badly in Graham's case, obviously they could have done it in Pelosi's case too. DougJ has an optimistic view of what this all means:
To me, though, the big take away here is that the right is losing the torture debate. It started with “Dick Cheney was just keeping us safe from teh terrorists, don’t you libtards watch ‘24’?”. Then it became “mistakes were made, but it was a difficult time.” And now it’s “okay, maybe the whole thing was fucked up, but Pelosi knew about it so it’s her fault.” It’s just another variation on “Clinton did it too” and it’s essentially a defensive posture.
I'm not sure I believe this, but it's a nice thought. Anybody else feel like the good guys are finally making some progress on the torture debate?
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Comments
I just wish somebody were
Submitted by David in NY (not verified) on Fri May. 15, 2009 10:25 AM PDT.
I just wish somebody were asking why there was the 83rd waterboarding, or the 82nd, or the 81st, ....
Progress in the Debate is not the Issue
Submitted by Yellow Dog on Fri May. 15, 2009 10:29 AM PDT.
The issue is making progress in arresting, jailing, arraigning, indicting, trying, and if convicted sentencing and imprisoning everyone who committed, approved, justified, defended and just failed to stop torture.
Until that happens, we are a rogue nation using the Constitution as toilet paper, and President Obama has no resort to the rule of law.
I ain't holding my breath, though
Submitted by thersites on Fri May. 15, 2009 10:35 AM PDT.
What Yellow Dog said
I guess it depends. My
Submitted by felinecannonball on Fri May. 15, 2009 11:15 AM PDT.
I guess it depends. My guess is everyone will remember that Pelosi is a liar who signed off on torture and took pictures of herself pointing at the genitals of iraqi prisoners.
But maybe the "other side" aka "the facts" will get an equal airing with "the flying poop". Then people will just be confused and remember that Pelosi is a controversial figure.
enough blame to go around
Submitted by junebug on Fri May. 15, 2009 11:13 AM PDT.
Anybody else feel like the good guys are finally making some progress on the torture debate?
Um, no. If the take-away here is that the CIA is lying, then we're not exactly breaking new ground. But as far as Democrats are concerned, even if you grant the fact that the Bush administration & Republican congressional leaders were giving them the runaround, it's pretty clear that the Democrats in key oversight positions fell down on the job. Pelosi's defense is that she never received official word about waterboarding until sometime in 2003 -- not 2002, as the CIA claims. As it's taken her until the last year or so to muster full throated condemnations of what went on, this is essentially a distinction without a difference. It's hardly equivalent to the authorization & cover up of criminal activity, but it may very well make her -- and a few other Democrats -- complicit in their silence.
Seriously? She'd most
Submitted by felinecannonball on Fri May. 15, 2009 11:19 AM PDT.
Seriously? She'd most likely have been committing a crime if she wasn't silent concerning information from a CIA intelligence briefing.
It took until "the last year or so" for the democrats to gain control of the house. Since then they passed legislation banning water boarding.
She'd most likely have been committing a crime if she wasn't silent concerning information from a CIA intelligence briefing.
It's her obligation to raise a red flag if she sees the administration engaging in legally questionable practices. This doesn't mean she needs to reveal any classified information. There are appropriate channels for Congressional representatives, and even their staff members, to raise their concerns. There are whistleblower provisions for just these occasions. While I'm certainly not suggesting she could've stopped the administration, she may well have been able to force them into court over this.
Harman was the one
Submitted by felinecannonball on Fri May. 15, 2009 12:46 PM PDT.
Harman was the one receiving the information (the detail of the information remains to be seen), not Pelosi. I'm not sure what she could have done that she didn't but it would be good to know the options. Perhaps there is a congressional research report out there.
I'm confident that she would have been dragged through the mud for breaching national security whether it was the actual case or not. I'm not standing up for wimpy dems from 2001-2004, but stating that the reality was there was an insane political playing field.
on the other hand...
Submitted by junebug on Fri May. 15, 2009 12:44 PM PDT.
All of my comments about Pelosi (and any other congressional Dems) may completely miss the point, particularly when you consider the links & commentary Laura Rozen provides here. This story has legs, and it's starting to run.
Too depressing
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri May. 15, 2009 11:19 AM PDT.
No. I am very disappointed in my fellow citizens who are so invested in rationalizing why torture is REALLY a great idea. Krauthammer's column in WaPo today is not to be believed. The only good news: the comments are over-whelmingly against him.
so did jack the ripper
Submitted by Alan (not verified) on Fri May. 15, 2009 11:25 AM PDT.
Clinton did it too!
Ok, I'm going to say here, 'So did Jack the Ripper', and I fully expect to hear some wingnut answer,
'But there's no evidence Jack the Ripper tortured his victims, he just killed them!'
What has happened so far
Submitted by daCascadian (not verified) on Fri May. 15, 2009 11:28 AM PDT.
The tide has stopped running in the right wing reactionary direction and is currently slack. Fairly soon it will begin to run in the sane direction, weakly at first and then with increasing strength. Not soon enough for me but it WILL run in that direction.
"...it's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine..." - REM
The CIA's release of the
Submitted by kth on Fri May. 15, 2009 12:57 PM PDT.
The CIA's release of the alleged information that Pelosi was briefed on torture was a huge miscalculation if it was supposed to be a shot across the bow of the Democrats. Basically Pelosi's position, demanding a full investigation, was the only out the CIA left her. So it isn't a matter of the good guys turning the tide, so much as that there was never any way this issue wouldn't take on a life of its own, regardless of what Obama wants. Oddly enough, Dick Cheney's insistence on being vindicated for endorsing torture probably doomed the slim hope they had that the lid wouldn't be blown off.
Obama signalled the highball ...
Submitted by al-Fubar (not verified) on Fri May. 15, 2009 2:35 PM PDT.
By releasing the memos, and now the train is leaving the station.
In the cynical world of realpolitik that puts him on the side of the angels.
"regardless of what Obama wants."
Submitted by nepeta on Fri May. 15, 2009 6:25 PM PDT.
That's the big stumbling block, no? I just read on Google news tonight that O is still cautioning Dems not to use the torture issue in a partisan way. I know O wants to 'move on,' but the US use of torture is hardly an issue comparable to Clinton's Monica escapade. It seems to me quite possible to move on with the huge amount of work that needs to be done as well as prosecuting those who were most responsible for the US decision to torture. Names that come to mind: Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and a few others, particularly now that we have rather clear evidence that the use of torture was never intended to 'make us safe' but to confirm the connection of Saddam and al Qaeda and thereby justify the war on Iraq.
It will be what the media says it is, unless ....
Submitted by dcsusie on Fri May. 15, 2009 7:45 PM PDT.
The media has been dancing around the "Pelosi is an uppity b-tch" meme for a long time now, and her painfully awkward performance yesterday seems to have been the trigger they needed to bust that line out into the open. But I agree this may be the trigger that forces a full investigation and airing, ironically enough. However, if the CIA is circling the wagons, as they seem to be, I'm not sure whether it will ever really be possible to get to the truth.
What Fallows forgets to
Submitted by Anonymous32 (not verified) on Fri May. 15, 2009 11:00 PM PDT.
What Fallows forgets to mention is that Obama continues to carefully hide information about the results and effectiveness of the interrogation.
It is unlikely that this data will remain suppressed for long.
"What Fallows forgets to
Submitted by Socrates (not verified) on Sat May. 16, 2009 5:41 AM PDT.
"What Fallows forgets to mention is that Obama continues to carefully hide information about the results and effectiveness of the interrogation."
Maybe that's because these things are irrelevant to the discussion.
Whether torture is right or wrong has NOTHING to do with results or effectiveness. Nothing.
If it did, then ANYTHING could be justified as long as it was effective. Think about it: anything.
The Right needs to locate a conscience. Don't hold your breath.
Pelosi CIA
Submitted by Paul Madrigal (not verified) on Sat May. 16, 2009 6:27 AM PDT.
Speaking as one who backed Cindy Sheehan against Pelosi in the last election, this brouhaha is a red herring. Pelosi was given classified information and to have disclosed anything would have been in violation of the law. The most any briefee could have done is write Bush and dissent as supposedly some did.
This is nothing less than an attempt by the GOP to change the debate from the fact that Bush / Cheney committed war crimes to blame it on Pelosi.
The problem is that Obama is doing nothing to enforce the rule of law, nothing to give confidence that he understands what his base wants and demands.
Paul
witches and bitches
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sat May. 16, 2009 4:24 PM PDT.
Cheney ordered the torture of prisoners after the Iraq invasion to "prove" 9/11 and Iraq were acting together. I'm surprised he didn't demand that they admit they are witches and thus could legally be burned at the stake.
What Pelosi said has been somewhat substantiated by other Democrats. WHAT DID THE REPUBLICANS on that committee know? Has anyone in the press asked them?
More bread and circus, please!
Submitted by SiliconDoc (not verified) on Sun May. 17, 2009 8:40 AM PDT.
Please release the 16 Uglyers in downtown DC so they can blow the place up !
I can hardly wait!
Hopefully they can get both the DNC and RNC headquarters as well !
Then the rest of you can tear up your paychecks because you're all greedy pigs too !
We can ban the advertisements from this website, and David Corn can hand over his entire ESTATE !
Time to get busy !
In the mean time the rest of the young punks can dunk their little brothers and his friends at the local swimming pool and our new government can arrest them for TORTURE !
That's right !
I WILL NOT ADIBE THE TORTUROUS ACT OF CHILDREN DUNKING CHOLDREN AT THE LOCAL SWIOMMING POOLS ALL OVER AMERICA! THE DUDE HAS SPOKEN !
Yes, you all are really that insane,
you're bonkers.
Read the Jane Harmon "objection" letter people !
Submitted by SiliconDoc (not verified) on Sun May. 17, 2009 8:53 AM PDT.
Gee, I hate to burst so many love bubbles, but I've read the Jane Harmon "objection" letter, and it reads like a game plan for pulling off effective "torture" and making sure any attacks on it are rebuffable.
Since Nancy is claiming she endorsed that, 6 years 4 months and some days after the fact, she just incriminated herself further....
Go read it for cripes sakes.
It's time to BECOME ADULTS and face reality.
I'd really appreciate it, so the crap crew in DC could focus on something other than being liars 24/7/365 so the rest of the USA can remain naive children.
I don't know, maybe it's best you all scream in between luchy suckings.
It's just a gigantic waste of time and effort - I guess that's a wonderful economic driver, huh. I mean we wouldn't have this horrendous entertainment site if there weren't tens or hundreds of thousands of doofuses all over the place.
Need the Harmon letter link ?
Can you handle finding it, can you handle the truth ?
Do you remember a democrat nuked japan twice ?
Do you remember a couple of democrats made the vietnam war your mental burden for your entire pathetic lives ?
Do you have a clue how high the voilent crime rate is in democrat voting central areas, not that it's lower in redneck hickville, but try to remove the purple lennon glasses and face up to reality.
I think it's time the American People grew up, and faced reality.
A nice step is owning up, instead of playing games six years after the fact. Especially with two women.
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