The Guantanamo Quandary

| Fri May. 22, 2009 8:12 AM PDT

Here is Barack Obama yesterday on what he plans to do with enemy combatants currently held at the military prison in Guantanamo:

First, whenever feasible, we will try those who have violated American criminal laws in federal courts....The second category of cases involves detainees who violate the laws of war and are therefore best tried through military commissions....The third category of detainees includes those who have been ordered released by the courts....The fourth category of cases involves detainees who we have determined can be transferred safely to another country.

....Now, finally, there remains the question of detainees at Guantanamo who cannot be prosecuted yet who pose a clear danger to the American people....Examples of that threat include people who've received extensive explosives training at al Qaeda training camps, or commanded Taliban troops in battle, or expressed their allegiance to Osama bin Laden, or otherwise made it clear that they want to kill Americans. These are people who, in effect, remain at war with the United States.

Let me repeat: I am not going to release individuals who endanger the American people. Al Qaeda terrorists and their affiliates are at war with the United States, and those that we capture -- like other prisoners of war -- must be prevented from attacking us again. Having said that, we must recognize that these detention policies cannot be unbounded. They can't be based simply on what I or the executive branch decide alone. That's why my administration has begun to reshape the standards that apply to ensure that they are in line with the rule of law. We must have clear, defensible, and lawful standards for those who fall into this category. We must have fair procedures so that we don't make mistakes. We must have a thorough process of periodic review, so that any prolonged detention is carefully evaluated and justified.

Hilzoy is not pleased:

No. Wrong answer.

If we don't have enough evidence to charge someone with a crime, we don't have enough evidence to hold them. Period.

The power to detain people without filing criminal charges against them is a dictatorial power. It is inherently arbitrary. What is it that they are supposed to have done? If it is not a crime, why on earth not make it one? If it is a crime, and we have evidence that this person committed it, but that evidence was extracted under torture, then perhaps we need to remind ourselves of the fact that torture is unreliable. If we just don't have enough evidence, that's a problem, but it's also a problem with detaining them in the first place.

I appreciate the outrage, but this is a genuinely knotty problem.  It was knotty under Bush and it remains knotty under Obama.  For various reasons, some defensible and some not, Obama is right: there are almost certainly a small number of Guantanamo detainees who are (a) unquestionably terrorists and unquestionably still dedicated to fighting the United States, but (b) impossible to convict in any kind of normal proceeding.

At the same time, they aren't American citizens.  They were captured on a foreign battlefield, not U.S. soil.  They are, essentially if not legally, prisoners of war in a war with no end.  So what do we do?

There is no president of the United States who has ever lived who would release such people.  There's no president who would survive doing so even if he did.  It's an impossible situation.

So what do we do?  This is a case where, unfortunately, I think outrage is too cheap and too easy.  We're still left with the question: what do we do?

UPDATE: Glenn Greenwald makes the argument against Obama's proposal here.  Big Tent Democrat responds here.

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Comments

The Israelis, Gov't AND

The Israelis, Gov't AND People, seem okay with releasing massive numbers of prisoners many of whom are known to be quite willing to take up arms against Israel. I am not sure it's the impossible situation you make it out to be.

Great Comments

It's nice to see that Kevin's readers are smarter than he is and that they recognize Guantanamo for the travesty it is. But the next question is, if the Democrats can't be relied on to do the right thing, as I argue here, what should we do? The answer is to build an independent anti-war movement that isn't dependent on the Democrats.

noticed this answer from

noticed this answer from sheldon whitehouse in a session at fdl: Senator Sheldon Whitehouse May 22nd, 2009 at 8:21 am 59 In response to Jesterfox @ 47 To argue by analogy, one can go to court and to a civil standard of proof show that someone is a danger to themselves or others, and obtain a civil commitment restricting their freedom. If we can do this with Americans, it seems logical that we could also do it with foreign terrorists. The question is, what checks and balances should surround the initial determination of danger, and what safeguards should stay with the person through the period of confinement? I look forward to hearing more from the Obama Administration about what schedule of rule of law safeguards they intend to apply, but I think that the example of civil commitment shows that it is not categorically forbidden to restrict someone’s freedom based on a finding of danger.

Declare the war over!

So we declare the war on those terrorists over. We won! The problem is with the concept that there is a never ending war on 'terror' and that means anyone we call a terrorist we lump into this phony never-ending thing that some politicians created to get elected and to stay elected. There is not, in any real sense, a war on terror just like there is not a war on crime and a war on poverty. There are terrorists and criminals and the poor, there will always be people like that, and we deal with them in an appropriate manner. Calling something a war for political expediency does not make it a war. Tripp

No

It's un-American to jail people for future crimes. It's un-American to jail people for their feelings -- even if the feelings are a murderous, unreasoning hatred. If they can't be charged, they must be released. It's mere rhetoric to describe this as a "war without end" and then conclude from that that we must violate our own morality and laws, forever. The best way to make this a war with an end is to be reasonable, just, and consistent. I know that some people will probably die if some of these unchargable terrorists are released, and I grieve at that. However, I am also 100% certain that more people will die if we do not follow our own laws and morality, and release people who cannot be charged and convicted. People behind jail become martyrs, and names to use to recruit others. What better claim can an anti-American operative make than quoting the own president's words? Now they have two.

replace un-american with

replace un-american with un-constitutional

No, un-American

It is unconstitutional, but it is more fundamentally un-American. Imprisoning people without charging them violates the spirit of the constitution and one of our fundamental, historical values. America was founded in part by people fleeing star chambers and absolute Royal control. They knew what injustice and dictatorial powers looked like, because they had personally experienced these in England, and then again as colonialists under an increasingly irksome imperial power. The constitution and especially the bill of rights enshrines that historical experience. Protecting the innocent, giving primacy to the individual is a deeply American belief. Look at each of the Bill of Rights. Amendment after amendment describe variations on our basic right to be left alone, and the requirement that the government follow all due process before interfering with us. Even the puritans believed that it is better to accidentally release the guilty rather than to imprison. Look at Increase Mather's Cases of Conscience, where he said he'd rather let ten witches go free over harming one innocent. These people believed in real witches -- evil, magical beings -- walking amongst us, and they still argued forcefully for the rights of the innocent. It's difficult, sometimes, to see that these people down in Guantanamo, many of whom are certainly sons of bitches and murderers, are innocent unless we can charge them with something. Our president is not a king; he cannot declare that a person should imprisoned without a trial. This is unpopular, I know, but I cannot help that many Americans today are fearful and whiny.

There is no president of the

There is no president of the United States who has ever lived who would release such people. There's no president who would survive doing so even if he did. It's an impossible situation. Really, really, really, no. There are six and a half billion people in the world. Of those, there are a whole lot who hate America and want to kill Americans. Releasing a couple of dozen more who we think fall into that category has no perceptible effect on the safety of America and Americans -- these people aren't supervillains.

I say we condemn the Bush

I say we condemn the Bush Ranch in either Crawford or Kennebunkport and transport the prisoners there. We can call it Stalag 43. I'm also for enlisting Vice President Cheney as General der Infanterie, with its special monocle of power and let him run the kamp.

Kevin says: "there are

Kevin says: "there are almost certainly a small number of Guantanamo detainees who are (a) unquestionably terrorists and unquestionably still dedicated to fighting the United States, but (b) impossible to convict in any kind of normal proceeding." Is there ANY evidence to substantiate this claim? Greenwald thinks it is highly unlikely to be true, and I agree with him. As a counter-example, Padilla was convicted after YEARS of torture (yes, TORTURE--years of solitary confinement and sensory deprivation amounts to torture.) If Obama wants to make this claim, let him provide some justification for it. Otherwise, you are giving him a blank check to "disappear" people. And I don't trust *anybody* that much.

Why can't they be prosecuted?

Was it impossible from the outset to prosecute these individuals in a court of law or did their treatment at the hands of the Bush/Cheney administration make it impossible? If it was impossible from the outset, then we may in the future face this problem again and a laws must be put in place to deal with this prospect. If, on the other hand, it was Bush/Cheney blunders which caused this problem, then we only need a set of ad hoc rules to deal with the current situation.

What do we do?

1) Hold them, and damage our reputation farther. 2) Transfer them to a nasty but reliable ally, and damage our reputation farther. 3) Release them and then assassinate them, and damage our reputation farther. I can't support any of those, but they would all work wrt. to short-term security. However, blowback is b*tch. (Bonus consequence: varying amounts of disruption within the Democratic coalition.) 4) Transfer them to a reliable ally that can actually mount plausible prosecution. This would be the best, but I doubt such a country exists. 5) Attempt to try them, fail, release them, improve our reputation, and risk the security consequences. This is the only morally sound stance. But it puts Democratic control at risk. How much of a risk, I don't know. I do know the Republicans are worse on everything I stand for, and would probably illegally detain a new set of people. We're screwed on this issue. Thanks so much, Dick.

enough evidence?

The real trouble with Hilzoy's formulation is those two words, "enough evidence." I don't think even Hilzoy believes that the problem here is an insufficiency of evidence. The problem is that DESPITE the evidence, these people are impossible to prosecute successfully. So you know, Hilzoy's fudging too. This is not about the powers that be failing to have sufficient cause to hold or even convict these people. And Hilzoy is pretending it is.

it's not that hard,

it's not that hard, really. you give them a jet-ticket home or anywhere else, and then you get in line with them in the airport. you tell a joke about terrorism, they laugh, and then both of you can be arrested straightaway. i mean--regular americans can be arrested for making terroristic threats. why not these guys?

The problem is that DESPITE

The problem is that DESPITE the evidence, these people are impossible to prosecute successfully. Do you have specifics for that? My understanding is that for the vast majority of the detainees, there's really no reliable evidence at all against them. I don't have specific knowledge of a single individual for whom we have good evidence that they're severely dangerous to Americans, but that we also know can't be prosecuted. If you have specific knowledge, that'd be interesting to share. If you don't, I wouldn't rely on that as a safe assumption.

If you want to use the

If you want to use the Israel analogy, we could grant them the central 1/6 of Guantanamo as a homeland and refuse them the right to enter or cross US territory at risk of being shot dead by border guards. -------------- Seriously though, I think Obama should 1) lay out the cases and the information openly to the public, 2) declare a course of action that's politically tolerable, and 3) then let the courts overturn him and release the prisoners as is constitutionally appropriate.

transparency

Yes, yes, and yes. If Obama, or the government feels these combatants are too dangerous to let go, but are unable to convict in a court then the details need to be laid out for the public. As much as I respect Obama's judgment, no president should have this much power to detain people indefinitely.

the president has offered the Afghan resistance a strategy

commanded troops in battle Whatever the US thinks it can do to those who commanded troops in battle in their own countries against foreign invaders, can be done to Americans who have commanded troops as occupiers. The president has offered the Afghan resistance to occupation a strategy of how to proceed.

One points out that

One points out that practically nobody the US has fought in the last forty years adheres to the Geneva convention; certainly any US troops which are captured by "Afghan resistance" can expect to be tortured and killed, and not "waterboarding" torture, but the kind where you bleed out when they're done (or before they're done, more likely). Trying to make this sound like it's a reaction to US policy in Guantanamo is idiotic.

a right to resist

The US has no legitimacy to indefinitely incarcerate combatants resisting occupation in their own homelands under the Geneva Conventions, and probably had no right to invade in the first place, while those whose nations have been invaded and occupied have a right to resist. It is doubtful any conflict the US has fought in the last forty years has adhered to the Geneva Conventions, and they would probably all be found illegal by an impartial investigation. One is not trying to make this sound like it is a reaction to US Guantanamo policies, but one is pointing out that the logic used to not adhere to the Geneva Conventions, or the rule of law, is a two way street, and that the enemies the US has created can justify everything they do by parroting the president and the former vice president.

Endless battles

tagged as: 
The essence of the problem with detaining allegedly dangerous prisoners is the endless nature of the terrorism war. When we fought Germany we detained prisoners until the war ended. No problem. But when the opposition is not politically legitimate, or cannot reasonably be expected to control its warriors after a "peace" is agreed (such as, say, Hamas), then battlefield prisoners must be endlessly detained. To release them is suicidal. What I think Obama wants to do, as do I, is to ensure that such prisoners receive due process. We know what due process means for people accused of crimes. And as Sen. Whitehouse noted, we even have due process standards for citizens facing endless detainment in civil proceedings. But those standards of due process are not usually applicable to people captured on a distant battlefield. Those standards work under the circumstances of a reasonably ordered civil society in which there exists a great deal of information about people who have been observed under normal circumstances, and witnesses who can testify under oath. We don't have those benefits in the case of dangerous battlefield prisoners. Consequently, we must create a different set of procedures to provide as much due process as possible for those facing endless detention under the circumstances of their capture. To summarize: our notions of due process simply don't apply to battlefield prisoners facing endless imprisonment. We need to develop the best notions possible to fit the circumstances of those battlefield prisoners.

God, this is why liberals

God, this is why liberals suck. They buy into the supervillain scenario. I mean, look at Korematsu. Frankfurter, Douglas and Black with the majority! If they'd had sense it never would have happened. Only moderates Jackson and Roberts and the really, really, liberal Murphy objected -- and only Murphy on the ground that the whole concentration camp scheme was based on racism. In fact, I bet the liberals were for burning witches in Salem, too. That's where we are now.

The problem is political,

The problem is political, not judicial. Under any "reasonable" standard, some people that we end up picking up under suspicion of terrorist activities are not going to be guilty of those activities; there will also be others whom probably are guilty but can't be convicted (at times, because the evidence that convinced us to pick them up was generated by intelligence that we don't want to reveal.) But politically, releasing those people is a real problem. Sure, holding them means some people are angry at the US. But if the administration releases one of these guys, and they turn around and blow up a US embassy or something, it's practically political suicide. If you've got to be wrong in a few cases, it's much safer (politically, as well as not getting blown up, of course) to be wrong on the side of holding people. The alternate downside is that, if the administration is pretty sure it's got a guilty party in mind but is worried that, if they are captured, that they can't be convicted and will have to be released afterward, the decision probably won't be to capture them, but something more permanent. We already do a certain amount of this, of course...

I'm with Hilzoy

Kevin, I'm with Hilzoy on this. We let them go. We have to. It's what we do with any American criminal, no matter how dangerous, no matter how sure we are that they are guilty, when there isn't enough evidence to convict. To start making exceptions to this is extremely dangerous. More dangerous than anything the terrorists could do. In the case of prisoners who can't be convicted because of the lawless actions of the previous administration, yes, we should release them, too. It's a shame, but it's the right thing to do. (Not all that different from what happened to Ted Stevens.) You can't rob people from their day in court because the last administration was vile any more than you can rob them of their day in court because you're "really, really sure." This is the consequence of misconduct. That's the moral and ethical thing to do. Of course, it's a loser politically. But it's what we should do. And let's remember, again, none of these guys are Magneto. Releasing those we can't convict will not trigger the apocalypse. As I said before, the effects of disregarding our system of justice are far more dangerous than what they will do.

What do you do? You release

What do you do? You release them in some other country and accept the consequences. The Magna Carta and Constitution give you no other alternative. Your only other choice is to violate our most supreme laws. In the long run, It's far more damaging to us to stretch and bend these great documents then it is to release a handful of dangerous people. Some people will die, but it is to preserve our freedom. Same as any other day. And, has anyone else noticed that the supposedly ultra-tough Republicans are a bunch of bed wetting, pants shitting cowards?

Way to troll the internet,

Way to troll the internet, dude. No president would survive...what would we do..? Way to stack the deck, chundernozzle. The answer is they get released.

I have no problem with

I have no problem with letting them go - those that Obama will not try but hold indefinitely - as long as we let them go from 30,000 feet without a parachute. Only liberals would argue that letting go bloodthirsty terrorists is a good, just thing to do. And they wonder why they are labeled "soft" on national security. Have you guys ever thought that Obama, just like Bush before him, can't try these terrorists in court because of the intelligence sources and methods that were used to capture them? Do you really want Al-Qaeda learning how we track them down?

Yes, yes I have

"Have you guys ever thought that Obama, just like Bush before him, can't try these terrorists in court because of the intelligence sources and methods that were used to capture them?" And then I think about the fact that half these guys were sold to us by other terrorists and it doesn't seem like a stretch to think that at least some of these guys were probably just schmucks who were traded for a fistful of gold. It would be nice, after keeping them locked in a box for 8 years, to figure out which is which and let the innocent ones go. Are some of these guys disgusting dicks who deserve to be locked in a box for the rest of their lives? You're damn right. And the ones who are should be in an American Supermax facility until they die of natural causes. But we need to figure out which are which instead of just blindly screaming "terrorists! terrorists!" I hate to have to break this to you, but innocence comes in all colors and religions. (Ick, did I just defend religion?) PS - If you were really McGruber your last sentence would have KABOOM *music* MCGRUBER!

"It's an impossible

"It's an impossible situation." Yes it is. If you're a coward.

McGruber, grow a pair!

McGruber, you snivelling pewling spawn, grow a pair! We release bloodthirsty murders. We release convicted rapists. We release sex offenders. Your fantasyland edict of 100% security in unrealistic and comes from your own fear and cowardice. You know what? If you actually met some of these guys maybe you'd find out a few things. You ever see Dog the Bounty hunter, all pumped up on testosterone and ready to kick somebody's ass big time, and then when he meets the person he realizes they are just a pathetic human being and not some devil incarnate and he goes all soft and squishy. I'm going out on a limb and will ask - what about rehabilitation? What about the chance of changing a terrorist into an ally, a productive citizen of some society. Do we all assume that doing that is totally impossible because we cling to our fantasy that these guys are a combination of Lex Luther, Doctor No, Hannibal Lector, and Satan? Tripp

hide the gas cans

Someday Private Green will be released. Hide the gas cans.

Convenients Accidents

Oh, let's just have these troublesome prisoners meet with a convenient and highly unfortunate accident. Problem solved. (And yes, I'm being sarcastic, but that seems to be the way we think these days.)

The Real Question

tagged as: 
It's funny how this article is posed in such a way as to ask what do we do now with this knotty situation. An admittedly knotty situation. A situation that was just as knotty for the prior inhabitant of the white house. The question isn't what to do now. The real question is, was it wrong to chastize the prior administration for years and years, claiming all of these sadistic evil acts and how Obama would do so much better, only to find that when the realities of governing set in, Bush wasn't too far off the mark? I know the answer, it was wrong. And it's kind of interesting to watch how liberals are trying to avoid this sticky implication. Suggesting that Obama's cosmetic adjustments to Bush era platforms is a substantial difference won't fly, even the main stream media isn't buying that. I've never seen the left be as partisan as they have in the last 8 years. You'd think that partisanship would have ended with the election of a post partisan candidate. Sore winners.

Costly

There is no question that releasing them would be politically costly -- both at the time of release and if any of them should be caught doing harm later. Pragmatists like KD make this point as if it were new or uniquely vexing in this case. It isn't. When we say they should be released, we know the cost, just as we do when we say a past rapist or murderer should be released if his trial was tainted. Every time a Liberal-supported law gives these people a right to a free trial and freedom if that right is abrogated, the left is pummeled by the right, and runs a risk of much worse political damage should the person attack again. Yet we accept that cost willingly. That's what makes us liberals, even if it is also what means we don't win every election. This is just the old tradeoff writ larger. Obama may be too much of a coward to do the right thing, but that doesn't mean no one in his position could. Democratic governors, congressmen, and lawyers do it week in and week out, and willingly pay the price.

Bush grabbing this tarbaby was wrong

What was wrong was Bush creating this problem without thinking ahead and seeing what a mess it would make. It was Bush who grabbed this tarbaby, it was Bush who couldn't get rid of it, and it was Bush who left it to Obama to clean up. No duh Obama has the same mess that Bush had, Obama inherited the problem from Bush! Somehow you twist this into an attack on Democrats?! You are a perfect example of a backward thinking, gullible, authoritarian follower who is unable to follow a chain of reasoning. Tripp

My previous comment was in

My previous comment was in response to the (Obviously) Obnoxious American. Tripp

Nice Try

tagged as: 
Tripp (I like that name btw), Nice try but your premise has some holes. First off, blaming Bush is getting really tired. Obama has been president now for over 4 months, and has been running for president for several years, during which time Obama railed against Bush for the creation of Gitmo and treatment of terrorists. In all that time, rather than endlessly campaigning, which Obama continued to do with yesterday's speech after he's already gotten the job, why couldn't he come up with any alternative options to these dastardly choices made by the prior admin? Because as I suggested in my prior post. There really aren't any. Of course, this reality won't stop Obama from railing against strawman positions, nor will it stop you from your faux moralizing. The fact is had Bush not protected this country for the last 7 plus years, you'd be the first to blame him for any deaths. In fact, that's precisely what the left did, and continues to do regarding 9/11. I don't blame the left for the "wall" between law and intel, I don't blame the right for a failure of imagination, this is all 20/20 hindsight nonsense whether you want to admit it or not. Terrorists put us in this situation, not Bush, not Clinton. Suggesting this was Bush's tarbaby (did you really say that?) is absurd and ignorant. And it's becoming more and more clear, by Obama's actions, though not his words, that the Bush policies were pretty close to the mark. Otherwise, he really would just let these prisoners go, close gitmo, and all follow through on all of the other grandiose promises he made during his campaign. He can't because it would put American lives at risk plain and simple. You should be thankful for these Bush era policies, continued in Obama's admin that have kept us safe, take a step off of the soapbox, and start actually start putting away all of these childish things.

nothanks@nomail.com

"there are almost certainly a small number of Guantanamo detainees who are (a) unquestionably terrorists and unquestionably still dedicated to fighting the United States, but (b) impossible to convict in any kind of normal proceeding." "Almost certainly" and "unquestionably" implies that you have evidence. So you take it to trail. If it isn't enough to convict, then you didn't have good evidence, and it never was "almost certainly", nor "unquestionable". Mr. Drum is always a careful writer, except when it comes to foreign policy and terrorism. I remember when he was writing about how "everyone knows" Saddam has WMDs, "Saddam isn't denying it", etc. He would allude to the "evidence" showing such, but had never seen any, he was just taking our government's word for it. Afterwards it was, "everyone thought Saddam had WMDs"... No, everyone didn't. The mainstream media said it alot, and then repeated what they had said, since it was what everyone was saying. It's a circle jerk, often with active disinformation at the source. People and governments lie all the time. They lie almost constantly during a war. This is not news.

But were they all captured on the battlefield?

tagged as: 
Kevin makes a point that all those in Guantanamo were captured on the battlefield. That is not necessarily true. There have been well documented cases of people who have been captured in cities and other locations far from any place that is recognized as a battlefield by the Geneva Conventions. As Greenwald points out, the means that anyone, anywhere could be labelled a terrorist and locked away indefinitely. There are numerous other problems with this proposal. First being - what are the rules for these "panels" which will determine prolonged detention? Will the accused have access to counsel, will he/she be able to confront their accuser(s), will they have access to evidence, will hearsay be admissible as evidence, evidence acquired through less than legal means, will the accuser be able to call his/her own witnesses? What is a definition of a terrorist - does a Timothy McVeigh qualify and, if not, why not? The fact is that we have numerous terrorists that are in jail after being tried. The problem is that before 2001 we decided terrorism was primarily a law enforcement problem in which the military played a secondary role. In these trials, secret evidence was used in a way that was fair and the terrorists jailed. Bush, in is infinite stupidity, decided to make terrorism a military problem in which law enforcement played a secondary role. Large number of people were rounded up on flimsy evidence, torture was used to obtain information, and obtaining/preserving evidence of a crime was not a high priority. Now because of the poor decision we have a false dilemma - sell our soul and values to lock up dangerous people on hearsay or worse evidence or try them in court and risk losing. I say we try them and have judges rule on the admissibility of evidence. And if evidence is inadmissiable then the judge and the administration needs to be up front - this case was lost because the Bush administration used techniques that were illegal. Not everyone will buy this argument and some unsavory people may get away. But the alternative is going down a path toward "pre-crime" detainment (as Rachel Maddow said). However, as several other commenters have said, this happens now in murder, rape, child abuse, etc. In a free society, we put ourselves at risk in order to protect our freedoms. So, while politically difficult, I think Obama's only choices, if he wants to follow the Constitution and the ideals of our Founding Fathers, is to put them on trial (civilian or military court martial). Indefinite detention is too much power for any government.

Media Ignores Real

Media Ignores Real Controversy Behind Torture Photos; They Show Prison Guards Raping Children Paul Joseph Watson Prison Planet.com Thursday, May 21, 2009 The real reason behind Obama’s reversal of a decision to release the torture photos has been almost completely ignored by the corporate media - the fact that the photos show both US and Iraqi soldiers raping teenage boys in front of their mothers. The Obama administration originally intended to release photos depicting torture and abuse of detainees in Afghanistan and Iraq by the end of May, following a court order arising out of a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit first filed by the ACLU in 2004. However, a reversal of Obama’s decision was announced this week, after he “changed his mind after viewing some of the images and hearing warnings from his generals in Iraq and in Afghanistan that such a move would endanger US troops deployed there,” according to a Washington Post report. In response, the ACLU charged that Obama “has essentially become complicit with the torture that was rampant during the Bush years by being complicit in its coverup.” The Obama administration has also sought to protect intelligence officials involved in torture from prosecution at every turn. http://www.infowars.com/media-ignores-real-controversy-behind-torture-ph...

Bush was played by bin Laden

Obviously Obnoxious, Terrorist and terrorism are nothing new. We've always had bad guys who try to use terror and asymmetrical tactics to get what they want. There was a previous WTC bombing attempt. The English faced IRA terrorists for years. The difference with 9/11 is that bin Laden lured Bush into fighting an endless war against the wrong enemy. Everybody and his mother knew that you don't get involved in a war in the Middle East, and widdle Bushie went and did it anyway. I was opposed to us going into Iraq for exactly the problems we are seeing now. We've drained our treasury, crippled our military, created a new generation of terrorists, and Bush captured bad guys on foreign soil and took them into our custody without knowing what to do with them. Bush grabbed the tarbaby and now we are stuck with the mess. Osama Been Forgotten played W like a violin. He got the US military out of Saudi Arabia and he has cost the US huge sums of money and he got US soldiers killed. And now, four months into the new Presidency, just four months after Bush finally scurried away to hide in shame, you say that blaming Bush for what Bush did is getting tired and we should move on? In your dreams, pal. Bush made his bed and now he can sleep in it, and the whole world knows it. Tripp

Jesus Christ Trippp

You have a lot of smart things to say. When you say tar-baby, you stick a knife through the heart of the rest. Yes, the most astute might catch that it's a literary allusion, but you're going to get more people thinking it's racist than knowing what the hell you're talking about. Just my 2 cents. Do whatever you want.

What's wrong with saying

What's wrong with saying "tar-baby?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar_baby Tar-Baby was a doll made of tar and turpentine, used to entrap Br'er Rabbit in the second of the Uncle Remus stories. The more that Br'er Rabbit fought the Tar-Baby, the more entangled he became. In contemporary usage, "tar baby" refers to any "sticky situation" that is only aggravated by additional contact. The only way to solve such a situation is by separation.[1] Let's be reality based, mkay?

Reading Skills?

Did I not say that I understood that it was an allusion? If we're being reality based, can we be realistic about the intelligence of people who debate on the internet (present company included)? Tarbaby is known by those Americans who are not well read as a slur against African-Americans. You are not the only one that can cut and paste from the internet. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tarbaby 1. tarbaby 81 up, 46 down A tarbaby is an african american (negro) who is dark. They happen to be so dark that they resemble dinosaurs in the ancient tarpits Boy oh boy look at that tarbaby. i bet i couldn't see him in a dark alley. by Phillip Mar 30, 2005 share this I don't see the reason to copy over the other one, but it's a lot nastier. Or the list of suggested topics that come up when you type in tarbaby. You can click the link if you want. This place drives me absolutely insane sometimes. I understand it takes time to read and then think and then type, but the middle step makes a big difference. Even some of the registered users around here don't understand how to connect the meanings of sentences to form larger thoughts. I'm also being driven insane by my own use of "literary allusion." Redundancy is laziness, even on a message board.

Dude, do a little browsing

Dude, do a little browsing in the urban dictionary. Most of the definitions are made up by 10 year olds who would rather make up a definition than look one up. Not a great internet search tool.

Somehow I'm still not being clear

I understand that tarbaby wasn't originally racist (well I actually don't understand that, but I understand the point of the original story suits Tripp's usage very well). However, like lots of other words that didn't start out as hateful such as faggot, gay, spade, coon, etc... this has been taken into usage as a slur. If you've ever lived in a place where people are openly racist (my experience comes from Western PA, but there are a million such places in the US), you have heard black people derogatorily referred to as tarbabies. Understanding that, it might not be a bad idea to choose a different term, so as not to inflame those who don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of Early American Literature. If you notice, the person Trippp was engaging with did not catch the reference and thought he was making a slur. In summary: Yes, the word has a meaning that is appropriate for the situation, but is it appropriate for the format? I am confident that Trippp will read this and think about it. That was all I wanted in the first place was for his point to have a little more impact.

the real terrorists: Bush Administration officials

If Bush era policies are to be used, they should be used on the real terrorists, Bush Administration officials. Arrest, harshly interrogate and incarcerate them indefinitely without trial, and the obnoxious Amerikans will claim they have constitutional protections prohibiting such treatment. But it cannot be refuted that the Bush Administration officials are unquestionably terrorists and unquestionably still dedicated to killing civilians anywhere for the enrichment of themselves and their masters. Bush era administration officials cannot be rehabilitated and they never, ever were fighting to defend their nation from invasion. The need to be separated from society until they can no longer perpetrate their crimes.

Quandary, Schmandary

I don't think it is a knotty problem, except politically. Habeas corpus is the single most basic principle of the rule of law; without it governments can—and inevitably will—do whatever they want. And it is not like we've got Dr. Doom and Magneto locked up in Guantanamo. None of these guys have such special skills or capabilities that they pose any greater threat than the thousands of terrorists already at large. We release people who are more dangerous than Khalid Sheikh Mohammed on procedural grounds from our criminal justice system every day, never mind that arbitrary detentions only convince more people that we are simply hypocrites and give them more reason to oppose us.

This is still America, right?

How can people actually contemplate detaining prisoners with no trial? Granted 44 stepped in it by not presenting a plan for Gitmo, but it's still a glaring shmear of hypocrisy to let it stand. Perpetual detainment on American soil thru a half-%ssed tribunal/federal court, doesn't sound too kosher either. (Or constitutional, ftm). Ship em' (the tried & guilty) to Montana where they need the work, or send em' to Chavez! The tried & not found guilty must be released in order to regain any semblance of the country we once were. Otherwise our court system will replace the terrorist recruitment advertisement that Gitmo remains to be. Thereby, continuing to endanger Americans at home & abroad. Not so knotty to me either.

hmm

There is no president of the United States who has ever lived who would release such people. There's no president who would survive doing so even if he did. It's an impossible situation. Bush released 534 people, and despite the inflated claims of recidivism there seem to have been a few terrorists among them. Last I heard, Bush was still among the living.

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