Obama and Gay Marriage

| Thu May. 14, 2009 7:19 AM PDT

Andrew Sullivan unleashed a cri de coeur yesterday about Barack Obama's slow to nonexistent progress on gay rights so far, and today Dan Savage agrees, adding a complaint about a lame gag Obama told at the White House Correspondents Dinner on Saturday:

Our lives, our families, and our rights are not a joke, Mr. President. The discrimination faced by gay people — whether coupled and single — is distressingly real and persists even for same-sex couples in Iowa and other states where gay marriage is legal. Stop fucking around and start delivering on your campaign promises to us, to our families, and to our children.

Obama's slow progress is a disappointment and Sullivan's and Savage's anger is wholly justified.  At the same time, I sort of wonder: did either of these guys actually watch Obama during the campaign?  Did he do anything to suggest that he'd be anything other than extremely cautious and pragmatic on gay issues?  Because the guy I saw on the stump was relentlessly measured.  He was endlessly dedicated to bipartisan comity.  He was pals with Rick Warren.  He was anxious to turn down the volume on the culture wars.  Even when he was way ahead in the polls he declined to attack California's Proposition 8.

I'd like to see Obama get off the stick and do something about DADT too.  It's a disgrace that it's still around.  At the same time, it's hardly a surprise that he hasn't made this his highest priority out of the gate.  He gave us plenty of warning.

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Comments

Obama and gay issues

I think there is at least some evidence that Obama, like most elected Democrats, just isn't that interested in gay issues once in office. I would analogize this to pro-lifers and Republicans. Both groups are treated as a source of captive voters, who are to be placated with occasional symbolic gestures, but very little real push. Ok, I understand that Obama doesn't want to reignite the culture war over gay marriage. I guess I can maybe give that a pass. Don't Ask Don't Tell, was always a major Democratic Party betrayal (the push to integrate the military was thrown back by the Democratically controlled Congress and especially by the high profile national security Democrats in the Senate.) I'm deeply unhappy that Obama, and the Senate, and the House seem to be doing nothing to change it. (The repeal bill is still trapped in committee in the House. Great going Pelosi). When I'm feeling generous I can look at the fact that there is a lot going on. But it makes me suspicious. But, what really seems to confirm my suspiciousness is the fate of the HIV travel/immigration ban. The repeal of that happened in Congress *last year* and was signed by *BUSH*. Nevertheless, the administration is dragging its feet implementing it. That kind of thing makes me really feel like Obama wishes we would just go away.

I agree, the failure to

I agree, the failure to repeal the HIV ban is inexcusable. It's completely within his control.

Once in office?

Please. He very obviously and blatantly wasn't interested in it during the campaign, either. His line about being a "fierce advocate" was, frankly, a lie. Whatever his other virtues, he's got pretty neanderthalic reflexes on both gays' and women's issues. He's one of those "some of my best friends are" guys on both women and gays who is incapable of recognizing the significance to individuals of the larger issues. And why on earth would he say anything positive about Iow and Vermont and Maine when he's been firmly opposed to same-sex marriage from the get-go? Anybody who voted for him thinking he was going to make everything right on these things just flatly wasn't paying attention to what he actually said and did.

"Whatever his other virtues,

"Whatever his other virtues, he's got pretty neanderthalic reflexes on both gays' and women's issues." Uh, did you miss all the times during the campaign when Obama would mention gay rights in front of non-gay audiences? How many politicians ever do that? Mike

I don't know about the

I don't know about the others, but I sure did miss it. Once or twice I heard him mention gays and lesbians as ... something. Like he was talking about making America better for everyone, including the gays. Never heard him say he'd lift a finger for us on one specific issue. I was shocked listening to that Dan Savage video. It's like there is an alternate gay community that heard what it wanted to hear from Obama. I also noticed that bitchy Sully taking a swipe at "the Clintons" for not doing enough for the gays in the 90's. Say what you will, Bill did a lot more for the gays in the 90's than anyone ever did before, and he took plenty of heat for it. Hillary wasn't running the show in the 90's. Nice way to cover your mindless support for Obama and his empty platitudes and your irrational CDS, Andy.

get over it

The primary was over a year ago. The president has even been sworn in. Get over it! Lol, I felt like this blog was going to kick up old primary sentiments and now here you are being an apologist for the Clinton administration and pointing out that Hillary wasn't president then (uhhhh, ok?) I agree with the general sentiment that Obama was going to be cautious in general. I don't think gay rights are unique. Eg Krugman points out that the stimulus plan is too small according to his own number crunchers (which is easy to forget listening to born-again fiscal conservatives).

thirty years since

It has been thirty years since Harvey Milk was assassinated, Mr. President.

Obama wasn't explicitly

Obama wasn't explicitly pro-gay anything during the campaign; he locked up the gay vote just because he was obviously better than the other guy.

Better than the other

Better than the other guy.....that's the sad part. America thinks that a two major party system will represent everyone. Bring in a third, fourth.......twelfth candidate please!!!

1 + 1 = President's on the

1 + 1 = President's on the DL. /just sayin

I'm not that familiar with

I'm not that familiar with Dan Savage's writing, so help me out here. Has he expended a lot of time and energy ripping Bill Clinton for DOMA and DADT? That's the guy responsible for the two greatest betrayals of the gay rights movement in the last 16 years, yet I don't ever get the sense that there's any widespread anger or resentment toward Clinton among The Gay. Mike

yet I don't ever get the

yet I don't ever get the sense that there's any widespread anger or resentment toward Clinton among The Gay. So you don't read Savage, but you're going to rip on him based on your spidey sense. Perhaps can clarify by how you developed this sense of yours....

Yea, yea, yea

This is the classic claim of the right, which is true on facts but false in the grand scheme. Yes, Bill Clinton signed both DODT and DOMA. He did so because the alternative was worse: The Republicans wanted to ban gays outright from the military. The Republicans wanted to amend the constitution. Clinton adopted ‘compromise’ positions because the GOP wanted to go nuclear.

You might have a good point

You might have a good point on DOMA if Clinton didn't campaign on it afterward. But he did. And you are totally wrong about Don't Ask Don't Tell. Gay integration in the military was thwarted in Congress by very high level Democrats at a time when Democrats firmly controlled the Senate and firmly controlled the house. Blaming that on Republicans is just blinding yourself to the actual history.

That would have been who?

That would have been who? Sam Nunn, or any of the other conservative southern democrats before they all went to the Republican side where they belonged. Your ignorance seems to be intentional. Is that you Sully?

I'm afraid Sebastian's

I'm afraid Sebastian's right. On DOMA, Clinton certainly could have vetoed it, and had he actually stood his ground, he could probably have persuaded enough Dems (in the House, anyway) not to override. At least he could have done the right thing. And then he did go out and campaign on it. So, he gets zero points from me on that. On DADT, the primary pushback came from DINO Sam Nunn. And you know, Clinton could have easily just backed off and said, we'll leave the status quo -- i.e., a Presidential directive -- rather than allow that awful bill to be enacted into law. Things wound up worse -- now it requires an Act of Congress to overturn the ban, whereas if it had been left alone, Obama (or some future president with more balls) could just undo it himself. And don't forget that Clinton also signed the HIV ban into law. Clinton did some good things too, don't get me wrong, particularly in the area of federal hiring. But he was no great LGBT champion.

No, no, no.

I’m not claiming that Clinton was a great GLBT president – I don’t think he was. I’m saying that to simply say ‘Clinton signed DODT AND DOMA’ into law thus he is “responsible for them” is intellectually dishonest. Go back and look at the history of them. Yes, Clinton caved – but neither DODT nor DOMA were Clinton’s planned end result. They were places he ended up after blowback, primarily from the GOP. You don’t have to admire Clinton for failing to stand up – but to lay the fault for both policies at his feet is foolish.

It's his signature on the

It's his signature on the bills. No one forced him. He gets no pass from me for being a chickenshit.

Clinton and the Democratic Party

Clinton engaged in some pretty noticeable betrayals, but I'm not "laying the fault for both policies at his feet". I'm laying it at the feet of the Democratic controlled House and the Democratic controlled Senate. The House vote was 295-133 at a time when the House was just a hair under 60% Democratic. (Vote on Amendment 318 1993 which I think was the final version see here). Sponsor Ike Skelton (D-MO). There were only 176 Republicans in the House at the time. Even if every single one voted for the amendment (and they did not), that would still leave 119 Democrats voting for it. That is 46% of the Democrats in the House. So don't blame it on Democrats in name only. It passed in the Senate by 77-22 at a time when the Senate was controlled 56-44. I couldn't find the individual vote breakdown, but again, even if we assume that every single Republican voted for DADT (which we know to be false), that would still leave 33 Democrats voting for it. That is 59% of the Democrats in the Senate. So don't blame it on Democrats in name only.

Looking Beyond the Basic

Again, I think you’re either missing the point, or taking the easy way out. Now, 10+ years in, sure almost everyone sees that DODT has moved beyond its usefulness. But, you have to go back and look at what was happening in 1993 – beyond just saying ‘They voted for it, QED’. In 1993, the policy was simple: Gays were not allowed in the military. It was a total ban (which of course, was only applied when the military wanted to apply it). Clinton promised to remove the ban totally. And tried to do just that (read Kerry's speech regarding the issue - why Clinton promised it, and why it needed to be dealt with - it's very good). And, of course, some people lost their minds (The GOP almost universally, but a good chunk of Democrats as well). It became clear that removing the ban outright, was not politically feasible. Even Barney Frank, at that time, was offering a modified policy (essentially, homosexual conduct while on the base was bad, but the Military shouldn’t poke their nose into off-base conduct). Now, one way to look at the DODT vote is that (a veto proof) 68% of the house voted for DODT. That too, though, is only a 1 dimensional look at the vote. What did a Yes vote mean? That they thought DODT was a good idea, or that DODT was a better alternative than what else was being offered elsewhere (at the very least, the alternative was to do nothing and uphold the ban). Was a No vote because they thought DODT didn’t go far enough, or because it went too far? Both Barney Frank AND Dick Armey voted against DODT – I doubt very much for the same reasons.

Hmm

I don't see how I'm missing the point. The original point was that it was pretty much just allegedly Democrat in Name only Sam Nunn. I showed that it had to be at a very minimum more than half of the Democratic Congressional caucus. I'm not sure what the point of trying to pin it on Nunn was. My point is that the national Democratic Party has historically been all talk gays. For two decades they have talked a good game. But even when in control, they don't really act. At first you seemed to suggest that wasn't accurate. Now you seem to suggest that they have changed. How long do we have to wait before you would feel there is pretty strong evidence that they haven't changed? August? End of the Year? End of next year? End of Obama's term? How long to we have to wait on the end of the travel ban, which Bush signed for God's sake, before you would agree that the administration seems to be dragging its feet?

I also am unsurprised that

I also am unsurprised that this isn't a high priority. Given the nature of the problems we face, I even agree with the apparent decision to let the issue alone. This is especially true since it looks like things are on a good trajectory for getting resolved on a bottom-up basis: more states are approving gay marriage, and I would expect that at some point the military brass will start making noises about "we can't afford to lose good people because of DADT." I wonder if your readers agree with this? Homophobia is still alive and well, along with a greater general fear of social decay. Prematurely forcing the issue from the top may allow the right wingers to link the two fears to their political advantage in disrupting the Obama administration. I think the atmosphere is poisonous enough without that. R

BigRichard Said: I also am

BigRichard Said: I also am unsurprised that this isn't a high priority. Given the nature of the problems we face... I agree with much of this post. The states are weighing in here. And if Obama makes a big issue of gay right the Right will just use that to deflect attention away from issues that we all have to contend with. Timing is everything. I'd love to see the Supreme Court weigh in favor of total equal rights for gays. But the time for that has not come yet. It's coming tho. Meanwhile, gay, straight and in-between between the econ, war, a wrecked pub ed system, and more we've got a whole lot of mess to contend with right now without giving the Right amo to make us take our collective eyes off the ball.

Obama and the Gays

We seem to be doing quite well in the culture wars without Obama's help. I'm okay with his knuckle dragging -- for the moment. My little Gay boat will float much better if he turns the economy around, appoints an honest liberal to the U.S. Supreme Court, and ends our several overseas military adventures. Beyond that, I don't expect much from the Obama administration in his first year. He owes the GLBT community action on DADT, but for chrissake, he hasn't even been able to get Dawn Johnsen confirmed. Make no mistake, I still harbor resentment towards Bill Clinton for being a chickenshit mf'er. His nonsensical line about "the alternatives [to DADT & DOMA] being so much worse" only offends me all the more. The man has no balls. I've always respected Hillary more than Bill. I continue to trust Obama. Hell, I gave Bush almost two years before I started hating him. I'll give Obama at least that long.

It's all about universal health care

I think that Obama sees his first priority as passing national health care this fall, and to do that everything else he might do has to be measured by whether it strengthens his hand or weakens it for that fight. The Culture wars? DADT? Torture and the Rule of Law? If supporting those issues will create greater opposition that will carry over into the fall, they aren't going to be acted on. Obama is neutralizing his potential opponents and not giving them clear issues to attack him on and to fund-raise with right now because that will strengthen them. I think that he, Reid and Pelosi all see that as necessary for the moment. I know that I do. FDR was talking about the essential need for national health care when he passed Social Security in 1934. At least the direction of movement on gay issues is positive right now. Three-quarters of a century delay on national health care and if it fails this fall, it won't be back for another decade. Obama is right now at the peak of his power to get health care. He better not screw it up. GLBT issues are going to demand a lot more local work and patience on the national level in the meantime. As I say, at least they are at least moving in the right direction right now. Health care is not. It's triage. The most urgent case goes to the front of the line immediately.

Give Him a Break

I agree with the recent posts. It's not that gay-rights issues are UN-important... but Obama has so much else on his plate right now. Come on guys, give him a break. Start complaining in a year or two.

I'm not unsympathetic to

I'm not unsympathetic to this argument. But explain to me his failure to rescind the HIV ban. It doesn't require Congress. The law that makes it his discretion was signed by Bush, for Chrissakes. You can't seriously tell me that his doing that would derail his agenda, can you?

About the HIV ban

Glenn said "But explain to me his failure to rescind the HIV ban. It doesn't require Congress." "What HIV ban," I muttered to myself. So, off to Google I went. I found the following in a 10/02/08 article in Gay City News:
The US has banned HIV-positive visitors and immigrants since 1987, when the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) added HIV to the list of communicable diseases that bar entry. In 1993, Congress enacted a law that required HHS to keep HIV on that list, but that law was repealed in July. HHS must still remove HIV from its list to end the ban.
I would say that this issue has not reached the mainstream radar screen. Certainly it hadn't reached mine. Having said that, I'd expect Obama to treat this strictly as a scientific public health issue, and leave it up to medical experts to declaim on the issue. It shouldn't be decided on a political basis. That's the sort of thing the Bushies did, after all. Besides, it isn't really a gay rights issue: HIV affects everyone, doesn't it? R

But public health experts

Have weighed in on the issue. Repeatedly. There is no, nada, zip, zilch valid public health reason to ban HIV+ travelers from entering the US. We have one of the largest HIV+ populations in the world already. HIV is not contagious -- it is infectious, but not contagious. So there is absolutely no reason to think that barring entry to HIV+ travelers does anything to protect or improve US public health. We have frankly been pariahs in the HIV scientific community for this policy for years now. Even Bush could see that, for God's sake. As for it not being a gay issue: First, I don't care. Second, HIV is associated in the public mind with gay men and that is the only reason this ban still exists. Do you think for one moment that if it largely affected rich straight white men, this policy would have ever been considered? And it is becoming increasingly difficult to escape the conclusion that Obama's reluctance on this point is precisely because he and others consider it to be a "gay issue", whether it is or not. And to the extent you're suggesting it's so obscure as to not be on Obama's radar screen, well, please. The man is not a fool and he's not ignorant. He knows about it.

HIV

I associate HIV more with drug use than anything else. That's certainly my impression for the DC area, at any rate. If I had to guess why the law was put into place, it would be for the selfish reason of not wanting to have to provide medical care or drugs to indigents. After all, it would be unethical to refuse medication. Anyway, I haven't seen your previous arguments. Perhaps in time I will be persuaded. I agree that it isn't contagious. R

Are you freaking kidding me?

Are you freaking kidding me? Obama doesn't care about gays, women, the military, the car companies, health care, the list goes on. Were you all sleeping through the primary and then the general election? Americans were duped again by an empty suit who promised hope and change- on no record that is- You should have voted for Hillary

million displaced Pakistanis whose lives Obama has ruined

give him a break Obama should first be confronted for his war policies, especially the newly million displaced Pakistanis whose lives he has helped ruin.

Is that the same Dan Savage

Is that the same Dan Savage who writes the deviated prevert column: http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/savagelove/090514/ ? Really raunchy at times. I have to skip over parts of it as some of his writing is so disgusting.

Party Differences

Liberals don't like violence because they can imagine what it's like to be a victim. Conservatives don't like sex because they can imagine what it's like to get some.

Sullivan's becoming a

Sullivan's becoming a one-issue blogger

Obama the hoser

tagged as: 
Yeah, the Demococks are worthless. I like Obama, don't get me wrong. He's certainly the cutest, best spoken commander-in-chief we've had. But, would it really hurt him to issue an immediate cease and desist order on the DADT? Would it really upset the macho elite fighters of the US of A? No way. 10% of those boys are takin' it like a man on the subs, aircraft carriers, and bases all over the world. I'd guess the number is more like 33% for the female uniformed. No, Obama's spineless, he's not gonna do a thing. WE the Queer People of the US are the scapegoats for the rest of you. We need elite units of berserker fags to show you str8s that we demand equality in all aspects of society. Where's Alexander the Great when we need him?

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