Gays in the Military
| Sun Jun. 7, 2009 9:09 PM PDT
Here's some good, if unsurprising, news: support for allowing gays to serve openly in the military is up considerably since 2004. For the past few decades public opinion on all kinds of gay issues has trended more tolerant by about 1% per year, and Gallup's latest poll confirms this: in the past five years support for allowing gays and lesbians to serve has increased from 63% to 69%.
Perhaps surprisingly, the biggest shift comes from conservatives, who have become more supportive by 12 percentage points, moving from 46% in favor to 58% in favor. Regular churchgoers and the young have also made bigger-than-average jumps.
There's a rule of thumb that says social policies are resistant to change until they garner two-thirds support from the public. Allowing gays to serve openly in the military has now officially passed that point. That means it's safe to keep your campaign promise and act, Mr. President.
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Comments
The Republican Congressional
Submitted by Shoe (not verified) on Mon Jun. 8, 2009 12:34 AM PDT.
The Republican Congressional delegation and the Culture-Wars types are going to mostly fall in the opposed minority unfortunately (see: Sotomayor) and they will be DELIGHTED to have an opportunity to scream bloody murder about Teh Gays for two months. It will probably backfire (see: Terry Schiavo) but it will probably still dominate the news cycle and suck all the air out of the room.
i still think obama should call a moratorium on DADT firings though, even if Dems dont want to push it in Congress until after health care.
12 points among conservatives is a big rise
Submitted by WoofWoof on Mon Jun. 8, 2009 5:24 AM PDT.
It's hard to tell how durable this change is, but there's a definite persistent and growing divide between the religious right and the libertarian-ish anti-tax Republicans. The surprising viciousness against Huckabee in last year's primary was a precursor of this.
Part of this is just the standard circular firing squad you see when a party loses power along with the libertarian leanings of the Net in general, but if you read the comments of right-wing sites, it's noticeable that even those conservatives who are lockstep with the party on every other issue are often embarrassed to be associated with the anti-gay, anti-evolution religious right.
I suspect that everyone will kiss and make up before the midterms, but if the split continues, it's really going to hurt them on the margins.
Republican Congressfolk weak on defense
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon Jun. 8, 2009 6:25 AM PDT.
Members of the Republican Congressional delegation can "scream bloody murder about Teh Gays" and then their opponents cam campaign that they want to weaken national defense by forcing needed soldiers out of the military. I imagine it would be easy to find some soldiers (e.g. arabic translators) who were kicked out for being gay to support someone campaigning against a supporter of the ban.
there are worse things
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon Jun. 8, 2009 6:44 AM PDT.
I forget where I read this -- might even have been here -- but the best summary of the change in attitude said something to the effect that now that there are shooting wars going on, people realize that there are scarier things than the thought that a gay man might see you naked in the shower.
Not Yet
Submitted by Don K (not verified) on Mon Jun. 8, 2009 7:02 AM PDT.
I'm guessing the political side of the White House (meaning Rahm Emanuel) won't want to touch anything gay until there's about 90% support for the policy, which means, roughly, never. I mean, this is the crew that can't light a fire under HHS to write the regulations to implement lifting the ban on entry of HIV+ foreigners. The change in the law was passed by Congress last year, and signed by George Friggin Bush, and yet HIV+ people still are turned away at the border.
The public doesn't have to
Submitted by Luther on Mon Jun. 8, 2009 7:28 AM PDT.
The public doesn't have to shower with gays inspecting their wienies. Should be up to soldiers. Gays and women longing to "serve" lasts as long as we are fighting turkeyshoots like Iraq and Afghanistan and not worthy opponents like China or N. Korea or even little Iran with nukes.
are you for real?
Submitted by SGT Weber (not verified) on Mon Jun. 8, 2009 9:44 AM PDT.
Dateline: Baghdad, 08 Jun 2009 (seriously, I'm in iraq right now, not like you)
Point by point: There's enough homo-eroticism and latent homosexuality among your heroic fighting men that we're all "meat gazing" in the shower, not just homosexuals forced to hide who they are because of DADT. That's the truth- any veteran can tell you the same, they just never would. I'm letting the sunlight in.
Letting the soldiers decide, as if we are allowed to decide anything democratically in the military, is just passing the buck. You assume that we're all a bunch of ignorant buffoons like yourself and would deny fellow soldiers their civil rights. You are wrong. This generation is more tolerant than any previous and having seen combat (over and over and over) we don't give a shit if you are gay or lesbian, as long as you can do your damn job.
The idea that "gays and women" (here are you referring to ALL women in the military? Are you mixing misogyny with your homophobia now? Or did you just mean lesbians?) only serve in conflicts that you are alluding to as being easy is pure baseless BS. You're obviously unaware of that just because prior to DADT the military asked "Are you a homosexual?" on the application papers many soldiers lied and therefor helped win WWII and fought valiantly beside unsuspecting soldiers in every conflict before and since. To quash your possibly misogynistic statement, many women throughout our nation's battles have heroically supported, fought along side, and died with our warriors.
A fellow soldier in my company was killed last week by an IED that exploded right next to him. Ball bearings and glass lodged in his chest, even with the body armor. If this is a turkeyshoot I don't want to start a fight with Iran or North Korea.
Addendum: Stop wearing your ass as a hat and realize that being backwards and ignorant, just because it holds up progress, is not akin to Republicanism or conservatism. it's just plain stupid. Get with the 21st century or stop stealing my oxygen.
up to the soldiers
Submitted by thersites on Mon Jun. 8, 2009 9:21 AM PDT.
In Luther's world, it should also be up to the soldiers whether or not they have to serve beside black people, I suppose.
And when did Iraq get to be a turkey shoot?
lot of Democratic congressmen are still new to the scene
Submitted by alan (not verified) on Mon Jun. 8, 2009 9:38 AM PDT.
The difficulty is that a lot of Democratic congressmen are still new to the scene and easily bamboozled.
If you try to get them to vote to repeal DADT it might lead to panic.
(the Captcha reads 'dinged Democrat'!)
The Alamo and gays
Submitted by Gene Elder (not verified) on Mon Jun. 8, 2009 10:46 AM PDT.
Well, Remember, "Art, like the Alamo, has to draw the line somewhere."
Gene Elder, HAPPY Foundation Archives Director. by the Alamo
elder4tomato@yahoo.com
Gays Too Precious To Risk In Combat
Submitted by Raul (not verified) on Mon Jun. 8, 2009 11:09 AM PDT.
Cut and paste the following in address bar.
It's not just the public that matters
Submitted by STeve D. (not verified) on Mon Jun. 8, 2009 11:47 AM PDT.
I suspect that it's not the opinion polls that will drive this for the administration, since I'm sure they've known for a long time that the progressive base favors equality for gays and lesbians.
Obama will have to take the pulse of the military, both the upper ranks and the enlisted personnel, and decide how much he's willing to risk for this change. It's sad but true--I seem to recall hearing that opposition from the military hierarchy is what made Clinton pull back from this issue so quickly.
Clinton's change of heart...
Submitted by Steve Krotz (not verified) on Mon Jun. 8, 2009 12:58 PM PDT.
The military alone isn't what caused Clinton to pull back from opening the services up to openly gay recruits. For sure, they're hysterical overreaction was a factor but it was the threat of a congress, whipped into a frenzie primarily by democratic Sen. Sam Nunn, to pass a permanent and extraordinarily homophobic ban on any gay or lesbian who might want to serve their country.
Ironically, even Sen. Nunn has recently said publicly that it's time to "revisit" the ban he so adamantly supported.
One of my favorite
Submitted by Memosyne (not verified) on Mon Jun. 8, 2009 3:37 PM PDT.
One of my favorite octogenarians is a gay man, 5'4" tall and 120 pounds, who loved poetry and Mozart and volunteered for the United States Infantry in l944. He served as a foot solder in the Battle of the Bulge and the Crossing of the Rhine.
His memoir of his service is called "Blood and Candles".
As long as the man or woman
Submitted by NancyP on Mon Jun. 8, 2009 5:40 PM PDT.
As long as the man or woman is their to "get your back" in a combat or dangerous situation what else matters?
Women and Gays in the Military
Submitted by wbinmd on Mon Jun. 8, 2009 8:00 PM PDT.
Sgt. Weber, thank you for your service. I think you’ll agree that combat is combat. It is obviously color blind. And one would hope that all men and women who prove their eligibility through aptitude and fitness tests (all being equal across the board for men and women) have the right to serve.
However, fitness tests for men and women are in fact different for each service. Our Sailors, Soldiers, Airmen, Coastguardsmen, and our Marines should be measure equally within their respective service to assure they can in fact "get your back." Men and women PFTs should be exactly the same. Other than that I have no problem with women serving in the military, or serving in combat for that matter.
As for this article, what is being advocated is forced acceptance of gays by the men and women in uniform, and in combat. The military decides who is eligible, unfortunately today through unequal test methods. Military leaders should also decide the matter of gays serving. They may see added potential for disruption and loss of unit cohesion through the integration of openly gay individuals; perhaps not.
If what you say is true Sgt. Weber, I’m sure that information would be passed up the chain to leadership and they’d ultimately decide in favor of accepting openly gay men and women in service. In either case, the policy should be crafted solely by our military leaders. Civilian “decision makers” should endorse that decision regardless. They don’t go, they don’t decide.
Sgt. W. B. USMC
Right On Sgt. Weber
Submitted by trip22 on Mon Jun. 8, 2009 8:35 PM PDT.
You said it perfectly Sgt you folks ARE in a WAR!
There is absolutely NO reason that anyone who wants to join the military should be refused enlistment, as long as they are physically and mentally fit. An individuals sexual choice is that persons choice ,not the military's business at all. As you said, gays and lesbians have fought in every war or battle this country has fought. Homosexuality is Not a physical condition and it is NOT a mental disease. Homosexuality does not make someone a coward or make someone unable to fight for his or her country. Other countries allow openly homosexuals to serve in the military and their military's have not gone to hell in a hand-basket. The USA has to wake up and enter the 21st century.
Even some physical conditions should be exempt so that non combat rates (by that I mean positions in the States or overseas that are truly non combat positions) could be filled to allow for better rotation of combat personnel. The common current military policy of continual combat tours is tearing apart The United States Military. If you can fight or release someone else to fight, you should be allowed to be in the military. PERIOD.
The war in Iran is wrong in my opinion but, I will say thank you to every solider, marine, sailor, airman and coastie I meet who has been there. You folks joined the military for each of your own reasons, you are fighting for your country and taking the orders you are given. You are being killed and horribly injured in a war that has become a quagmire. Every last one of you should be thanked and appreciated by us civilians.
The war in Afghanistan, to me is the war we should be fighting. The folks who are fighting there now, have fought there or will fight there will forever have my thanks and appreciation. You are also fighting an extremely difficult war and and are being horribly injured and killed. You are not truly being appreciated by many civilians.
Whenever I see someone in uniform I try to go to them and say, Thank You for your service.
WALSTIB
Gazing over the military...
Submitted by Bella (not verified) on Tue Jun. 9, 2009 7:44 AM PDT.
Some of the fiercest fighting men and women in history have been gay. Some pretty (emphasis on Pretty) hardcore warriors have even been trannies! Of course standard histories usually edit out problematic heros like the Chevalier d'Eon who was raised in pettycoats, defended a vital bridge at the battle of Frontinac and won medals for valor in the service of Louis the 14th. The Sun King was so taken with the cross dressing swordmaster d'Eon the he granted the MMe Chevalier (the Ladyknight) an income of 500 livres per year on condition that he/she remained in skirts. d' Eon may have been the greatest swordswoman of the day having even out fenced the great Saint Georges in one bout. If ever a life deserved to be hallowed in cinema d'Eon deserves a biography, and what a film it would make!
I am also a veteran, as well as being trans; although I did not know I was trans at the time I was in uniform. Such was also the case for Christine Jorgenson, who also served with valor. A lot of trannies are veterans, often because they believed the myth that the military would make men of them. But the military can only make boys into men, and if the sapling grows into the wrong kind of tree usually the services loose now time in weeding em out.
So, don't ask don't tell needs to go, but I will not think change will have come till Trannies get to stay in the military post transition and post reassignment.
One thing about us trannies, we aren't all prissy drag queen types. Some of us have far too much dirt under our nails for having any time for being "entertainment". I left the Air Force without my gender issues ever coming into question, however, had I been able to transition in the military I never would have left and I would likely still be proudly in uniform or a recently retired lifer. Considering the great increase in the number of intersexed persons engendered by the endocrine disrupting agricultural chemicals we have unwillingly allowed to contaminate nearly every water system, the military ought to change it's policies for trannies too. They take men, they take women they should welcome all the butches and girlymen too, our gender issues usually make us fiercer especially if we've been forced to take crap for it all our lives previous to donning the uniform.
don't ask don't tell
Submitted by shane (not verified) on Sun Jun. 14, 2009 9:58 AM PDT.
Considering all of the policies we're willing to overlook to fight terrorism (Geneva, Bill of Rights, Constitution), it really is foolish how rigid we are with don't ask, don't tell. To give a gay soldier the boot is foolish enough. When that soldier is an Arabic translater, it is raising the white flag of surrender. It is telling the enemy we're not serious about winning. WE CANNOT INTEROGATE THE TERRORISTS WITHOUT TRANSLATERS!
The argument that young teenaged or twenty-something homosexuals have no interest in their fellow young service members is baloney. Furthermore, the argument that homosexuals have no interest in looking at naked young straight service members in the shower is another lie. I have to think that the whole "communal" shower thing was created by homosexuals in the first place.
For instance, let's look at this youtube video done by a lesbian, in which she describes Navy communal showers as "paradise."
AJ, a/k/a The BeaverBunch. November 19, 2008
"...Oh, okay. So I get to boot camp and we have to take a shower and I'm thinking like private showers because I'm thinking I'm at the Holiday Inn or something, or...the "W" — two complete different types of hotels. But, whatever. You know what I'm saying. So, um, we go to take a shower cause you eventually have to shower. I mean, so we get in there and it's like open showers. Like, imagine like a gym full of showers. And its just this open space. And I remember seeing all these naked girls. Like, all different walks of life. All different shapes and sizes. And, I was like, "If you want to view paradise." You know, it was amazing to see that. And I remember this girl had a tattoo down by her...na na...and I was like, "Can I see that? Like, what is it?" And, I remember until today, it was a fucking Care Bear. But I was like, "Oh, my God. I'm like, I'm molesting all of these women." And, at that time I figured I'm totally gay. Totally gay, cause I, was just...didn't want to get out of the shower..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouGT3o-WED4
Retrieved January 21, 2008
From Barrack Buddies and Soldier Lovers (page 107)
"...what better way to find out [about being gay] than to be surrounded by such a large number of men?"
Question: "That was your reason for joining the military?"
Answer: "Yes. [Laughs] Believe it or not, it really was."
Regarding whether gay guys act on their orientation, we know that recently an Airforce captain was sentenced to 50 years for raping fellow service members with the date rape drug.
Lastly, their is a whole genre of homosexual porn regarding the military, showers, bathroom sex, and the like. Why even deny that this exists?
The delegation of the republican...
Submitted by Imdb (not verified) on Tue Oct. 13, 2009 11:24 AM PDT.
The delegation of the republican Congress and the Culture - war types are going to fall down mostly it was opposed to the minority unfortunately (see: Sotomayor) and they will be pleased of having the opportunity to stop protesting about the gays for two months. Probably it will have a negative effect (see: Terry Schiavo), but it is probable that still dominate the news cycle and to absorb all the air of the room.
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