The Torture Docs
| Tue Aug. 25, 2009 2:49 PM PDT
Do 
the recently released torture documents demonstrate that torture worked? Back in April Dick Cheney said they would, but now that they're out in the open he's backing down:
The documents released Monday clearly demonstrate that the individuals subjected to Enhanced Interrogation Techniques provided the bulk of intelligence we gained about al Qaeda.
In case the fudge factor in that statement isn't crystal clear, here's a different version:
The documents released Monday clearly demonstrate that the individuals who received academic scholarships provided the bulk of the correct answers on final exams.
Well, no kidding. But that doesn't mean that getting a scholarship made you smart. It means that scholarships were given to people who were already smart to begin with. Likewise, the "enhanced interrogation techniques" were used on the prisoners who were the most valuable in the first place. They would have provided the bulk of the intelligence no matter what we'd done. Michael Scherer comments:
Now that the memos have been released — with redactions — they provide no clarity to the question Cheney claimed they would answer: Did the enhanced techniques produce results? Rather the two memos describe the value of information provided by Al Qaeda detainees, which one memo calls a "crucial pillar of counterterrorism efforts." The memos, as redacted, are silent on the role of harsh interrogation in producing that information. One memo describes another effective technique — dubbed the "building block" process — that dd produce significant information. This process is an standard technique, of confronting one detainee with information from another detainee to produce more information. It does not involve any physical coercion. Does Cheney want other parts of the same memo, which were redacted in the latest release, made public? It is unclear.
(1) The fact that we are not really bothered any more by taking helpless detainees in our custody and (a) threatening to blow their brains out, torture them with drills, rape their mothers, and murder their children; (b) choking them until they pass out; (c) pouring water down their throats to drown them; (d) hanging them by their arms until their shoulders are dislocated; (e) blowing smoke in their face until they vomit; (f) putting them in diapers, dousing them with cold water, and leaving them on a concrete floor to induce hypothermia; and (g) beating them with the butt of a rifle — all things that we have always condemend as "torture" and which our laws explicitly criminalize as felonies ("torture means. . . the threat of imminent death; or the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering . . .") — reveals better than all the words in the world could how degraded, barbaric and depraved a society becomes when it lifts the taboo on torturing captives.
We managed to get through WWI, WWII, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Gulf War, and a dozen smaller engagements without making the torture of prisoners into official government policy. We can get through this one without selling our souls too.
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Comments
Our souls were sold a long
Submitted by Julene (not verified) on Tue Aug. 25, 2009 3:21 PM PDT.
Our souls were sold a long time ago. We can redeem ourselves with prosecutions, but those souls are long gone.
You sure about that?
Submitted by Thumb on Tue Aug. 25, 2009 3:37 PM PDT.
"We can get through this one without selling our souls too."
Um... I think that horse has already left the barn.
intelligence
Submitted by optical weenie on Tue Aug. 25, 2009 3:55 PM PDT.
What bothers me the most about Cheney's statement is his assertion that the bulk of the info the US got on Al Qaeda came from Al Qaeda members that had been captured. What does that say about our ability to collect intelligence from afar? Not much ..... and that is most scary.
sold at a slave auction
Submitted by tpx on Tue Aug. 25, 2009 4:02 PM PDT.
Violent, domestic insurgencies by the Symbionese Liberation Army and the Weathermen were ended without torture or even marshal law. The Unabomber and the abortion clinic bomber were both captured without having to resort to harsh interrogation of their families, friends and associates.
America's soul was sold at a slave auction hundreds of years ago.
Without getting into the
Submitted by James2 (not verified) on Tue Aug. 25, 2009 6:07 PM PDT.
Without getting into the torture debate at all, I would be flabbergasted if the U.S. didn't engage in "enhanced interrogation techniques" during WWI, WWII, the Korean War, the Vietnam War... Whether it was official government policy, or just an unpleasant but accepted practice, I think it's naive to say that this is some recent development that never occurred before bad ol' Cheney took over, just as it would be naive to say that we didn't carry out other supposedly off-limit tactics (assassination, rendition, kidnapping, etc.).
Prepare to be flabergasted
Submitted by Thumb on Tue Aug. 25, 2009 6:35 PM PDT.
There was a documentary a few years back on a Japanese sub captain that was captured in Hawaii during the initial Japanese air raid. They interviewed him and he talked about how shocked he was to NOT be tortured or abused in any way. It changed everything he though about America from what he was told about America and he became cooperative, eventually staying here after the war.
There was also a military interrogation handbook that came out a few years back written by a successful WWII US interrogator talking about the process of getting high quality information out of a captive, and it involved treating them with respect, not contempt.
For generations our military used to take pride in how we treated prisoners respect gained an abundance of information and respect.
You might think it naive to think this is something new to the US, but really look into our history. The adults used to be in charge.
Yes I understand this. I'm
Submitted by James2 (not verified) on Wed Aug. 26, 2009 1:18 PM PDT.
Yes I understand this. I'm well aware of our history. One of the reasons that we were still pulling Japanese vets (WWII) out of holes in the ground in the 70's was because they were convinced they would be treated in the same manner they treated prisoners, which generally wasn't the case. Now of course, this doesn't by any stretch mean we never tortured people. There's plenty of proof out there that we did.
You have no soul, James2.
Submitted by g. powell on Tue Aug. 25, 2009 8:09 PM PDT.
You have no soul, James2.
....? Why, because I point
Submitted by James2 (not verified) on Wed Aug. 26, 2009 1:20 PM PDT.
....?
Why, because I point out that The Greatest Generation was susceptible to all of the worst human traits that we are?
What does that have to do with me?
James2, these libs live in a
Submitted by Luther on Tue Aug. 25, 2009 9:20 PM PDT.
James2, these libs live in a PC fantasy world. It would take about two seconds to research abysmal treatment of German POWs, the water cure for Filipinos, etc., etc., etc. Seems to be more of an ultra-partisanship thing--of a sudden the ultra-sleaze Eric Holder discovers rule of law. Obama slipping in the polls. Nuremberg for the defeated Republicans.
I'm certainly no fan of Cheney and Rumsfeld and would prefer to seem them in jail rather than the Abu Ghraib scapegoats, but there is a time for action and a time for moving on.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v10/v10p161_Brech.html
In Andernach about 50,000 prisoners of all ages were held in an open field surrounded by barbed wire. The women were kept in a separate enclosure that I did not see until later. The men I guarded had no shelter and no blankets. Many had no coats. They slept in the mud, wet and cold, with inadequate slit trenches for excrement. It was a cold, wet spring, and their misery from exposure alone was eviden
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/02/25/080225fa_fact_kramer
Many Americans were puzzled by the news, in 1902, that United States soldiers were torturing Filipinos with water. The United States, throughout its emergence as a world power, had spoken the language of liberation, rescue, and freedom.
In five minutes I could fill this column with three feet of this stuff. Get off your duffs and do a little research before posting PC hot air that comes from a world of fantasy.
TORTURE
Submitted by DM (not verified) on Wed Aug. 26, 2009 12:08 AM PDT.
TORTURE IS WRONG.
BUSH AND CHENEY ARE MENTALLY ILL.
BUSH AND CHENEY BELONG IN AN INSANE ASYLUM.
_____________________
SCANDALS! SCANDALS! SCANDALS!
DANGER! DANGER! DANGER!
GEORGE W. BUSH IS AN EXTREMELY DANGEROUS CRIMINAL STALKER AND SERIAL KILLER!
“In her suit, Margie Schoedinger states that George W. Bush committed sexual crimes against her, organized harassment and moral pressure on her, her family members and close relatives and friends. As Schoedinger said, she was strongly recommended to keep her mouth shut. . . . Furthermore, she alleges that George Bush ordered to show pressure on her to the point, when she commits suicide” (go to Google, type “blog of drizzten Margie Schoedinger,” and hit “Enter”).
“George [Bush is personally complicit] in the death (murder to be precise) of my friend Margie Schoedinger in September of 2003. Determining the exact whereabouts and contacts of . . . George Bush on September 21 thru 22, 2003, should be entirely lacking in difficulty” (Leola McConnell—Nevada Progressive Democratic Candidate for U.S. Senate in 2010).
McConnell is correct: Bush applying pressure (continuously criminally stalking Margie Schoedinger) purposefully to force Schoedinger to commit suicide does in fact constitute murder where it culminated in her death.
Bush’s method of murdering Schoedinger cannot exist in a vacuum: he must have murdered other people in the same way.
During Bush’s presidency, of course Bush would have desired to kill people whom he hated or get them out of his way. Insofar as Bush was clearly capable of murdering Schoedinger—even in “broad daylight”—and is clearly capable of getting away with it, in consideration of common sense and the laws of human nature, Bush of course murdered numerous people in the disgusting way he murdered Schoedinger. One can examine public information; in various situations where people who sought to oppose or disadvantage Bush ever so frighteningly ended up “committing suicide”—specifically—Bush murdered them just like he murdered Schoedinger. For example, Bush murdered James Howard Hatfield by continuously criminally stalking Hatfield to the point that Hatfield could not get away from it—purposefully to force Hatfield to commit suicide—and Hatfield committed suicide in desperation to escape. However, the vast majority of such scandalous cases will never come out (the grisly details are typically hard to substantiate). A prosecutor really can lawfully charge a former president with murdering one or more people in the disgusting way Bush murdered Schoedinger. The American people unfortunately live in a world where evil presidents can murder any number of people—figuratively—with a wave of a magic wand and get away with it.
(There are thousands of copies of the information above on the Internet. Please feel free to go to any major search engine, type “GEORGE W. BUSH IS AN EXTREMELY DANGEROUS CRIMINAL STALKER AND SERIAL KILLER” or “George W. Bush continuously criminally stalked Margie Schoedinger to the point that she could not get away from it, and she committed suicide in desperation to escape: he murdered her” or “George W. Bush applying pressure (continuously criminally stalking Margie Schoedinger) purposefully to force Schoedinger to commit suicide does in fact constitute murder where it culminated in her death” or “George W. Bush murdered James Howard Hatfield by continuously criminally stalking Hatfield to the point that Hatfield could not get away from it—purposefully to force Hatfield to commit suicide—and Hatfield committed suicide in desperation to escape,” hit “Enter,” and readily find hundreds of copies.)
(Please feel free to go to Google, type “GEORGE W. BUSH IS THE WORST PRESIDENT IN U.S. HISTORY blog of Andrew Wang,” and hit “Enter.”)
_____________________
Andrew Wang
(a.k.a. “THE DISSEMINATING MACHINE”)
B.S., Summa Cum Laude, 1996
Messiah College, Grantham, PA
Lower Merion High School, Ardmore, PA, 1993
The verb tense in that last
Submitted by DWN (not verified) on Wed Aug. 26, 2009 4:30 AM PDT.
The verb tense in that last sentence is wrong. You mean "We could have gotten through....".
Because, as they say, that train has left the station already.
DWN
We managed to get through
Submitted by Lucifer (not verified) on Wed Aug. 26, 2009 5:42 AM PDT.
We managed to get through WWI, WWII, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Gulf War, and a dozen smaller engagements without making the torture of prisoners into official government policy. We can get through this one without selling our souls too.
Sorry, no backsies.
What mystifies me is
Submitted by MNPundit (not verified) on Wed Aug. 26, 2009 7:08 AM PDT.
What mystifies me is Greenwald. We felt all those things BEFORE. It's not something that just suddenly appeared in 2002 or whatever. Maybe Greenwald would say it's because we've been torturing on the sly for decades but I don't think he has said that. It was always thus, people just don't care.
Think and class torture with slavery
Submitted by sdean7855 on Wed Aug. 26, 2009 7:27 AM PDT.
I grew up in the South and had a sense of the lingering poison of slavery...like a hint in the air of the stink of decomposing flesh. These crimes are poison to the perpetrators and the perpetrators' socitety as well as the victims.
Those who inflict or in whose name the infliction is done must first steel themselves, then justify the action and finally glorify it. The infliction is not only inflicted, it is justified...and then that justification becomes part of the mythos of the inflicting society, a mythos that darkens and warps its soul.
It is ugly, ugly, ugly and, like a denying addict, the inflictors must for their own sanity, wall it off behind am ever-higher and thicker barricade of justifications and lies. *Of course* Cheney is justifiying and explaining away torture: the alternative is seeing himself as the monster he is.
Your own detox foot pads
Submitted by Arne (not verified) on Tue Oct. 13, 2009 11:40 PM PDT.
Give please. Cheerfulness, it would appear, is a matter which depends fully as much on the state of things within, as on the state of things without and around us.
I am from Norway and also now'm speaking English, give please true I wrote the following sentence: "Perspiration material is a place by which a clinical water's bamboo is led just to evil after being exposed to having sole in the strength on a other reflexology."
Thanks for the help :-), Arne.
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