ACORN Madness
| Thu Nov. 19, 2009 11:53 AM PST
I understand that constantly calling the Republican base batshit crazy gets old. I really do. Honest. But via TPM, check out this survey result from Public Policy Polling: 52% of Republicans now think that ACORN stole the 2008 election from John McCain.
There aren't words for this. Something like 40 million Republicans are now convinced that ACORN (!) somehow managed to steal an election that McCain lost by seven percentage points. Another 20 million think they might have stolen it but aren't sure. The Fox/Limbaugh/Palin axis, which probably directly reaches maybe 10 million people on a regular basis, has nonetheless convinced six times that number to buy into a conspiracy theory that makes the Area 51 crowd look sane by comparison.
This is craziness. I could understand 10 or 15% believing this. That's sort of the base level of people who will believe any nutty idea. But 52%? Someone in the GOP needs to take a deep breath and a long look in the mirror, and then try to rescue their party. Condoning insanity is not a long-term electoral strategy.
Advertisement
Advertisement
Comments
C'mon, Drum. A big chunk of
Submitted by MacGruber on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 12:01 PM PST.
C'mon, Drum. A big chunk of the Democratic base think Diebold stole the 2004 election for Bush. And before that, the Supreme Court.
Plus, I'd hazard a guess that a good percentage of responders to that poll just picked that because they hate ACORN, not because they actually believe it.
Doesn't Pass the Sniff Test
Submitted by Dave Brown on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 12:19 PM PST.
Look at the number of Democrats and independents who supposedly believe the same thing. Total BS, and nothing less. It's hard to imagine adults get roped in to believing this crap.
evidence counts
Submitted by ericf on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 12:31 PM PST.
Except we have evidence theft occurred while the claims about ACORN are impossible. And no, we didn't claim Diebold did it all or the Supreme Court did it in 2000, but I suppose it's easier to mock than to see what's actually being claimed. At least we heard about ACORN ad nauseum before deciding Republican claims are delusional.
http://www.ravensblog.net
at least in 2004, there was a rational mechanism
Submitted by MobiusKlein (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 12:44 PM PST.
Just one state flipping in 2004 (Ohio) could have move 20 electoral votes to Kerry, making him the Electoral collage winner.
2,858,727 -2,739,952=118775 was the margin, about a 2% spread
(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Presidential_Election )
So at least for 2004, there was a feasible argument to be made.
For 2008, not so much.
C'mon, MacGruber. Do you
Submitted by DKF (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 1:03 PM PST.
C'mon, MacGruber. Do you really think anywhere near 52% of Democrats believe Diebold stole the 2004 election for Bush? Furthermore, the decision in Bush v. Gore can be challenged directly on its legal merits without reference to shadowy conspiracies.
the power of Diebold & the Supreme Court cannot match your hate
Submitted by tpx on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 1:08 PM PST.
Anyone who thinks the economic power of Diebold and the constitutional power of the Supreme Court cannot match the power of ACORN must be an American.
ACORN also stole all the
Submitted by B on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 1:22 PM PST.
ACORN also stole all the independent pre-election polls, McCain's will to win, and Steve Schmidt's brain.
"A big chunk of the Democratic base think Diebold stole the 2004 election for Bush. And before that, the Supreme Court."
Yeah, I guess if it was a multiple choice test. If we had to write essays we'd say stuff about electronic voting machines being inefficient, impossible to audit, and not well distributed in urban areas of Ohio. And the supreme court changing the course of the recount on the basis of a party line vote that contradicted justices views on state rights and was explicitly not supposed to be used as precedent.
What's the essay version of ACORN?
The essay version
Submitted by optical weenie on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 2:30 PM PST.
MacGrubby's a little tea pot,
Short and stout
His ass is his handle
His mouth is the spout
When he gets all steamed up,
Hear him shout
Just tip him over and words come out!
MacGrubby's a clever teapot,
Yes it's true
Here let me show you
What he can do
He can change his handle
And his spout
Just tip him over and poop comes out.
C'mon
Submitted by Albee (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 11:55 PM PST.
grow up there, optical weenie...don't stoop to juvenile attacks.
You left out how Acorn made
Submitted by thersites on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 5:23 PM PST.
You left out how Acorn made the McCain people choose Paliin.
C'mon, MacGruber. Do you
Submitted by DKF (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 1:51 PM PST.
C'mon, MacGruber. Do you really think anywhere near 52% of Democrats believe Diebold stole the 2004 election for Bush? Furthermore, the decision in Bush v. Gore can be challenged directly on its legal merits without reference to shadowy conspiracies.
Diebold and the Supreme
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri Nov. 20, 2009 6:26 AM PST.
Diebold and the Supreme Court decision were both valid issues directly related to the outcome of the election. To put Acorn in the same category is idiotic. They only registered voters, and few industrious folks cooked the books for a little extra pocket change. Absolutely no effect on the vote itself. Keep the discussion real.
Diebold and the Supreme
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri Nov. 20, 2009 6:27 AM PST.
Diebold and the Supreme Court decision were both valid issues directly related to the outcome of the election. To put Acorn in the same category is idiotic. They only registered voters, and few industrious folks cooked the books for a little extra pocket change. Absolutely no effect on the vote itself. Keep the discussion real.
But the Supreme Court did
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 12:23 PM PST.
But the Supreme Court did throw the 2000 election to Bush before the count process was complete. This was especially galling when any reasonable vote count would show Gore won Florida, as demonstrated by subsequent reviews of the ballots. Even if you don't believe the facts on the count, they certainly gave the election to Bush before the recount was done.
On the other hand, there is approximately zero evidence of fraud in the 2008 election.
9% of Democrats think ACORN
Submitted by Cam Winston (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 12:24 PM PST.
9% of Democrats think ACORN stole it? Throw in how many Dems think Diebold stole 2004, Rove stole 2000 and the huge number of Dems (~30%, IIRC) who buy the 9/11 Truther movement & you have crazies all over.
Good to see you type something on ACORN, though. Too bad it took ridiculing Republicans, instead of pointing out the penchant for cheating when it comes to ACORN and its effects on politics, though. Not surprising, but still too bad.
Welcome to the Age of
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 12:25 PM PST.
Welcome to the Age of Advertising. If you hear something, it's because, and only because, somebody paid to have it said. An age when you can just pick up talking points off the ground and use them. "They said it then, we should be able to say it now. It's only fair ..."
Well, uh ...
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 12:28 PM PST.
The Supreme Court *did* appoint Bush.
Maybe the poll is a reflection of how small the Republican party has become. If there are only 20 Republicans left then 11 of them being batshit crazy isn't so unusual.
It's just a poll
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 12:35 PM PST.
There's answers to poll questions (see David Moore's The Opinion Makers) and what people actually believe. Republicans are, indeed, idiots, but I don't put a lot of credence in this number.
Given the large shift that
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 12:36 PM PST.
Given the large shift that occurred away from the Republican party during the last decade, I think that the vast majority of those still claiming the party are well steeped in the Fox/Limbaugh information circuit. If that is all they're getting for news and all they trust, why wouldn't they believe that ACORN somehow stole the election?
One of my favorite blogs is
Submitted by joshjosh on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 12:40 PM PST.
One of my favorite blogs is the Volokh Conspiracy, despite its right leanings. Having said that, some of the goofier posters on that blog, and not Limbaugh Palin, are probably to blame. They've been trumpeting the ACORN conspiracy (and Dem voter fraud generally) since before the election and lend a patina of credibility as law profs.
I recently deleted Volokh
Submitted by Art Eclectic on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 2:51 PM PST.
I recently deleted Volokh from my blog list. It used to be a fascinating look at the law from a libertarian slant but ever since the 2008 election cycle geared up it turned into a bunch of raving lunatic fringers. I appreciate the 2nd Amendment and all, but these guys are paranoid delusional on the subject. Yawn. The entire blog suffers now from extreme Obama Derangement Syndrome and the trolls who haunt the comments section...these guys are supposed to be professionals? More like playground bullies with limited analytical skills. If these guys represent our legal system, it's time to move to another country.
Don't Stop Believin'
Submitted by AndrewBW on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 12:46 PM PST.
Why would anyone want Republicans to give up their crazy beliefs? Sure, it can be a pain in the ass, but on the other hand it can only increase the overall marginalization of the party. Personally I'm sometimes tempted to play the agent provocateur and go onto RedState and some other sites and start spinning a few theories of my own. I say let the madness continue!
give power to ACORN, and America will thrive
Submitted by tpx on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 1:01 PM PST.
It is unfortunate ACORN does not have the power to steal elections, or all the other powers ascribed to it, like responsibility for the housing bubble. If ACORN had the kind of power the Axis claims it did, W. Bush would not have been elected, California would have a 2/3 Democratic majority in its legislature, all minority citizens could vote, Iraq would never have been invaded, Goldman Sachs would never receive a dime of public monies and have to pay its fair share of taxes, and everyone in America would have chicken in their pots.
from MY's comments
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 1:06 PM PST.
Saying ACORN has the power to steal presidential elections is like saying all agricultural policies are rigged by the Girl Scouts in order to get higher profit margins on their cookies, or that defense policy is set by the karate instructor with a dojo on the second floor of the mini-mall above the vacant car stereo shop.
A sobering thought from DailyKos:
Pause for a moment and ponder how they’d be handling things if they’d lost the election by, say, 500 votes. In a state run by Obama’s brother.
52% sounds right when the
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 1:32 PM PST.
52% sounds right when the Republican base is decreasing at an exponential rate.
more ACORN power
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 1:44 PM PST.
they also led to Gore getting more than half a million votes more than Bush.
Not so sure the poll is right.
Submitted by Quiddity who can't login as Quiddity (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 1:50 PM PST.
Steve Benen says he doesn't believe it and would like to know the methodology, etc.
Look, if that many people believe ACORN has that power, then virtually any other conspiracy theory can gain traction (Illuminati, Trilateral Commission, Rothchilds). I'm not saying it can't happen, but if wild conspiracy theories are so widespread, then you can throw the conventional political playbook out the window.
To be honest, depending on
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 1:55 PM PST.
To be honest, depending on how I was asked, by whom, and how I was feeling, there's a very good chance I would say that Acorn stole the election, regardless of what I actually think (which is that the Illuminati/TrilateralCommission/BilderbergGroup/PremiereRadio/CouncilForeignRelations/Wackenhut/Xe stole the election.)
Stolen Elections
Submitted by tpx on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 5:49 PM PST.
Good point. A general public perception that the electoral process is a fraud is becoming ascendant. Stole may be the key word of the survey's question. Certainly the Supreme Court's partisan vote in 2000 was an official signal that close elections can be manipulated on political grounds. A lack of confidence in the veracity of elections leads to questioning the legitimacy of government, which is very bad for good politics and governance.
Don't minimize the problem away
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 2:10 PM PST.
Either the Republicans have delusional ideas or they are liars. Either way, the results of the poll are the results and those folks saying "don't pay attention to this..." are hoping there is no scrutiny of the results. There is a problem in the GOP and they will need to fix it before they will earn the trust of the American people again. I'm kind of hoping it takes a decade so that the damage done by the Bush cartel can be undone. Regardless, the extremism and delusional thinking characterizing the median GOP voter should be a real concern to the GOP and is a weakness in our democracy.
Well Put
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri Nov. 20, 2009 6:54 AM PST.
"Regardless, the extremism and delusional thinking characterizing the median GOP voter should be a real concern to the GOP and is a weakness in our democracy."
Ditto that big time, especially the last part of the sentence. MAJOR weakness. We should all be hoping for sanity to creep back into the Republican Party because the issues we currently face - global warming, economic meltdowns and gross distributional imbalances, healthcare costs, loss of US credibility, etc. - require a united front to address. As it currently stands, an entire party can't even acknowledge these are problems. At the end of the day, we have already seen that all the facts and red-faced arguing in the world can't convince the crazies - and that disease is just going to have to run its course.
If we want to see the return of a strong (sane) counter party to the Democratic Party in American politics (and I really think we should want this), Democrats need to actually lead. The longer Democrats allow themselves to be drug into the mud with these people and the longer we don't produce real results that broadly, positively affect American lives, the more we look like the Republicans. As long as Democrats lead effectively, Republicans will not be able to regain power without offering appealing alternatives. This is what we should want - two parties trying to convince us of the value of their ideas and willing to adjust when those ideas aren't working.
The poll question is
Submitted by David in NY (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 2:24 PM PST.
The poll question is probably not very good at showing how many people think ACORN "stole" the election, but it a pretty good indicator how many think Obama's election was illegitimate for some reason or other. The question is odd -- "Do you think that Barack Obama legitimately won the Presidential election last year, or do you think that ACORN stole it for him?" If you thought the election illegitimate for some reason, you probably blamed it on ACORN.
So I don't think this says much about how many blame ACORN, but still, that 52% of Republicans think Obama's overwhelming thrashing of McCain was illegitimate, what must they be thinking? He's really Kenyan?, there was massive fraud?, ACORN stole it?, he's black? I mean, even so, WTF????
it makes whiskers stand up
Submitted by tpx on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 2:32 PM PST.
Mass media repetition of any theme is often repeated by those who have heard/seen it many times. Tell someone who has never used an electric razor you do not receive close shaves with your electric razor, and, if they are over 50, they will recommend Lectric Shave because it makes whiskers stand up. This type of mimicry has reached an extreme in American society, where even Republican moderates will argue about the extreme detriment ACORN is to society.
The poll itself legitimizes the question.
Submitted by Julia Grey on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 2:44 PM PST.
Bad idea.
"Hey, this is just more proof that ACORN had a lot to do with Obama's win. They really COULD have stolen the election! They're even polling on it now!"
You're an idiot.
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 3:01 PM PST.
You're an idiot.
Blaming ACORN is easier than
Submitted by Art Eclectic on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 2:54 PM PST.
Blaming ACORN is easier than accepting that the majority of the country doesn't like your policies.
ACORN
Submitted by Lupines for the Poor (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 3:09 PM PST.
What the Republicans are actually doing is asking Kevin Drum whether he'd trust an ACORN employee to do his taxes.
Crazification factor
Submitted by cec (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 3:18 PM PST.
Amusingly, this agrees pretty well with the 2005 Kung Fu Monkey post on crazification.
Note that 26% of all those
Submitted by Thus Blogged Anderson (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 5:09 PM PST.
Note that 26% of all those polled bought the ACORN idea.
That's easily within the 27% crazification factor discovered by Kung Fu Monkey.
That number has a way of turning up. Those boys were on to something.
Proportions
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 5:18 PM PST.
52% of the 33% that labeled themselves Republicans = 16-7% of the population.
It's totally a question effect. If the survey didn't specifically mention ACORN, then the share of people that would bring it up would be minimal (my guess is under 5%).
One word explains most Republican views
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 8:21 PM PST.
Projection
Having a base of millions of
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 10:32 PM PST.
Having a base of millions of people who will believe ANYTHING you say, no matter how preposterous, is actually solid ground for a political party.
Look at the comments on Sarah Palin's Facebook page. These people really believe that the health care bill includes a death panel that will kill their grandmothers. They're absolutely terrified, and they'll do anything Republican leaders say.
It's terrible news for the country, but yes, this is good news for Republicans.
Another ACORN Tape shows up.
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu Nov. 19, 2009 11:22 PM PST.
Another ACORN Tape shows up. This time in Los Angeles.
If Obama can shitcan all those guys that worked for him, it's time everyone with a brain shitcanned ACORN instead of making excuses for them.
They get/got $54,000,000 from the US Government. Their big boys compared to almost everyone, and they can handle themselves. If they can't hire reasonable people and train them, it's no sweat off my brow to say fuck them to hell, and I'll have no Federal dollars going their way.
You guys are dipshits to keep going back to *that* well.
Let's get reality based, okay?
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/11/19/new-l-a-acorn-sting-why-sure-ill-h...
Jesus, someone should arrest
Submitted by B on Fri Nov. 20, 2009 6:49 AM PST.
Jesus, someone should arrest that pimp dude already. I swear I saw him in DC or NYC or something. If one believes the part about campaign funds, he'll be a republican congressman in So Cal soon.
Personally, I'd give him the same advice. Be honest with the banks, go talk to rival organized traffickers with guns for advice, and try kicking himself in the balls. If he came back I'd give him phone number for an organization called LAPD or Los Angeles Pedophiles Direct for explicit advice on human trafficking and money laundering.
BTW, ACORN refers to some completely distinct and some loosely associated non-profit organizations across the country employing 400,000 different folks and a much larger army of seasonal volunteers. A few of their seasonal employees have registered Mickey Mouse to vote using a vacant lot as an address. Others haven't shoved the door in the face of ridiculously dressed young Republican. STFW.
The GOP base is in a state of denial
Submitted by underoath on Fri Nov. 20, 2009 12:52 AM PST.
The Republican base becomes more and more extreme by the day
Crank up the crazy and rip off the knob - Stephen Colbert
Sample size too small for statistics?
Submitted by Nancy Irving on Fri Nov. 20, 2009 4:35 AM PST.
Considering how few people are now willing to ID as GOP, the sample size in the poll may be so small that the result is statistically unreliable. :)
nuts
Submitted by steve duncan on Fri Nov. 20, 2009 6:07 AM PST.
I'm constantly barraged by friends, relatives and coworkers with viral e-mails making all manner of outlandish claims. Democrats are secretly selling off chunks of Idaho to North Korea. Abortion has been made mandatory in "red" states if you already have 2 kids. George Clooney and Barack Obama meet secretly at night and wrestle on rubber sheets coated in Wesson oil. They fervently, honestly believe all of them. There is a child-like defense when confronted by the idiocy of it all : "I read it on the internet, it must be true! Somebody wouldn't just make something like that up!" These same people can stand in line at the grocery and mock the National Enquirer for the nuttiness of their front cover yet any insanity found on the internet is gospel. I have a deluded sister that thinks Glenn Beck is channeling the combined wisdom and learning of 10,000 years of human existence. She's but one of millions holding the same opinion, among them I note is Sarah Palin. Our national collective descent into madness is really something to marvel in.
Sadly, I, too, have a sister
Submitted by NancyP on Fri Nov. 20, 2009 7:32 AM PST.
Sadly, I, too, have a sister who is delusional and believes what Fox and the Republicans tell her. She used to be capable of rational thought if not totally original thought but this has gotten too far out of hand. She has sent me all variety of viral emails and can't accept reasoned arguments backed with research that refute them. If I say that I get my facts checked at factcheck or politifact I'm told that they have no legitimacy because they have a "Liberal" bias. She's a birther and denies the idea that the original birther is also an original truther because that doesn't make sense to her. Rational discussion ended when she told me that I needed to register Democrat - I've always been registered Independent - so that I never have to work again. If you tell her that most people of all political persuasions do work and want to work she won't believe you.
This does not necessarily
Submitted by skeptonomist (not verified) on Fri Nov. 20, 2009 6:29 AM PST.
This does not necessarily prove that 50% of Republicans are idiots - it may just be an effect of intense partisanship. They may be smart enough to figure out which answer is the party line.
It is not smart to assume that poll questions are always answered honestly and reflect true opinions of the responder.
This does not necessarily
Submitted by skeptonomist (not verified) on Fri Nov. 20, 2009 6:32 AM PST.
This does not necessarily prove that 50% of Republicans are idiots - it may just be an effect of intense partisanship. They may be smart enough to figure out what polls are used for and which answer is the party line.
It is not smart to assume that poll questions are always answered honestly and reflect true opinions of the responder.
Post new comment
MoJo Comments: Send Us Your Feedback
We changed our spam software to better filter comments. Should you encounter any issues, please let us know.
