Quote of the Day
From Sen. Orrin Hatch (R–Utah), explaining why conservatives should worry about the Democratic goal of eventually implmenting a national healthcare system:
If they get there, of course, you're going to have a very rough time having a two-party system in this country, because almost everybody's going to say, 'All we ever were, all we ever are, all we ever hope to be depends on the Democratic Party.' That's their goal. That's what keeps Democrats in power.
Weird. I understand that conservatives don't like the idea of a national healthcare system, but guess what? Germany has one. Britain has one. France has one. Canada has one. And the conservative parties in those countries have done just fine. Republicans would do fine too if we had one.
Via Atrios. And I promise to do some non-healthcare posts soon.
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Comments
the elephant in the room
Sooner or later Republicans will have to voice their real fears about health care legislation. It's a secret plot to turn everyone into teh gay.
Hatching a conspiracy
The problem that Hatch refuses to face is that the Republican strategy of playing to the big money is self-defeating in the end. Eventually things will collapse and the GOP, beholden to their corporate masters will be forced to take untenable positions.
So Hatch is upset because he knows that huge majorities of the American electorate, given reasonable access to decent health care, will turn to the party that gave it to them and all the insurance, hospital and corporate money that the GOP gets to convince people that somehow this is a bad thing, will become less and less effective.
Of course Hatch doesn't have any problems with tax cuts for the wealthy, and convincing people that somehow these tax cuts will benefit them, when they don't. All politicians are whores and mostly for money, but the Democrats will, occasionally, give the average voter something in exchange for votes. The GOP have hitched their wagon to large corporate donations. Democrats will play for votes and Republicans will only play for cash.
"Conservative" is relative
Kevin,
You say that "conservative parties in those countries have done just fine". But the conservative parties of those countries are far to the left of the US Republican Party. They're probably to the left of the US Democratic Party.
From the point of view of Republicans, there are no conservatives in power Europe, just liberals and not quite so liberals.
Daryl McCullough
Ithaca, NY
one exception
European conservatives are just as racist as American conservatives.
Hatch
Does the health care system for senators cover episodes of confusion or senior moments ? Just wondering.
Conservatives in Europe
Of course, the right wing in Europe is to the left of America's liberals.
I don't see any European conservatives callling for less state-mandated vacation time, and I don't see any American liberals calling for any state-mandated vacation time.
And I don't see any European conservative parties campaigning for the death penalty, just as I see no American liberal parties campaigning against it.
Just to name two issues . . .
Basically Orrin is saying
Basically Orrin is saying that UHC will be so popular that people will always vote for the party that created it. Alternatively, the Republican party may have to change. Horrors! In other news the Democratic party is now firmly opposed to slavery. Change is a bitch.
*****And the conservative
*****And the conservative parties in those countries have done just fine. Republicans would do fine too if we had one.*****
Right. To echo what others have said, the "conservative" US party (I don't think there's much that's authentically conservative about the GOP, hence the scare quotes, but whatever) hasn't really made peace with the very notion of the need for a safety net. Those other parties have. Big difference. So sure, a party of the right will survive the introduction of universal health (social) insurance in the United States, and that party of the right will almost certainly call itself the "Republican" party. But it will be party that will no longer be able to continue it's sixty year war with FDR.
Jasper: "But it will be
Jasper: "But it will be party that will no longer be able to continue it's sixty year war with FDR."
Actually it's been only a 29 year war. Ike said that only nut jobs wanted to dismantle Social Security (and made some reference to a few oil rich Texans). Nixon proposed a form of UHC not too different from what's in Congress now (and unfortunately shot down by Ted Kennedy). In the 1960's people used the term "liberal Republican" without irony.
Hatch has figured out
Hatch has figured out something de Tocqueville did centuries ago:
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
Cradle-to-grave public programs are quite enticing to a politician; it gives them power and just as important, makes the public need him. This, in part, explains why it takes a near miracle to reform any government program - there are too many entrenched and well-funded interests wedded to the status quo.
It's amazing how people really believe that government health care will be so much better and cheaper than health care is today. Bollocks. It will only be cheaper for those who make less than X. X, of course, is set by the politicians. If you make, more, you must subsidize everyone under X. Health care is now more expensive for the population above X.
Of course, how the health care will somehow be better amazes me. You're not changing the number of doctors. Or improving medical training. Or mandating access to better supplies or equipment. You are simply increasing the possible number of patients. This is not a recipe for better health care.
I have to hand it to the Demcrats, though. And Drum - you know this as well:
as Democrats create more and more government services, they close ranks and make it harder for any Republican to oppose them. Name a Republican today who can campaign for fewer Social Security or Medicare or other entitlement benefits. You can't. As much as many Republicans would like to narrow the scope of the government, too many people are wedded to their SS check or their Medicare benefits and would oppose these changes, even if the people are normally conservative voters.
It's a nice game you liberals have going.
Be careful with cap-and-trade, though. There's no real benefits for any chunk of the electorate. Cap-and-trade could be your Waterloo.
MacGruber: "Cradle-to-grave
MacGruber: "Cradle-to-grave public programs are quite enticing to a politician; it gives them power and just as important, makes the public need him. This, in part, explains why it takes a near miracle to reform any government program - there are too many entrenched and well-funded interests wedded to the status quo."
I agree, even if I'm puzzled why you refer to the finance industry as the public.
MacGruber: "This is not a recipe for better health care."
It certainly is for the uninsured.
MacGruber: "as Democrats create more and more government services, they close ranks and make it harder for any Republican to oppose them"
That's the problem with this whole representative government business - sometimes people vote in terms of their own self-interest. It seems that you and Orrin are terribly worried about this. What we really need is an aristocracy (including father-son presidents) that will rise above the great unwashed and horribly selfish masses to do "what's right for the country".
MacGruber: "Cap-and-trade could be your Waterloo."
See you there Monsieur Bonaparte.
Bulletin: People might vote
Bulletin: People might vote for political parties that give them what they want and not for parties that don't.
Next Bulleting: Teams that score more points win games.
*****It's amazing how people
*****It's amazing how people really believe that government health care will be so much better and cheaper than health care is today.*****
It's amazing how many underinformed rubes aren't aware of the superiority of any number of rich country alternatives (France, Australia, The Netherlands, Japan, etc.) to the US model.
Also, I don't think many reasonably informed people believe that enacting government-guaranteed universal health insurance is going to make healthcare cheaper in absolute terms than it is now. I think they believe, with good reason, that it will eventually be cheaper than sticking with the status quo. In other words, it's a matter of allowing US healthcare spending to rise to "only" say, 21.5% of GDP in, say, 2034 -- instead of the 25.7% of GDP we'll get if we do nothing.
"I agree, even if I'm
"I agree, even if I'm puzzled why you refer to the finance industry as the public."
I didn't. And you can count me as a conservative who was against bailing out the finance industry, which of course enjoyed bipartisan support. What was even worse was Obama deciding GM and Chrysler needed a good bailout as well. How's that working out? Not too well since Chrysler looks to be going bankrupt - again. GM is probably not far behind.
"What we really need is an aristocracy (including father-son presidents) that will rise above the great unwashed and horribly selfish masses to do "what's right for the country"
No, what we really need is a bunch of politicans who don't engage in behavior that de Tocqueville noted. But that's not happening. It's far too easy to spend other people's money, to redistribute wealth and enact new and enticing entitlement programs with taxpayer money.
"See you there Monsieur Bonaparte."
Heh. You will see me there indeed.
Huh McGrubby?
"And you can count me as a conservative who was against bailing ..."
McGrubby you aren't a conservative, you are a libertarian!
MacGruber joins Orrin Hatch
MacGruber joins Orrin Hatch as another example of why the Republican party is at such a historic low ebb: they each see public policy debates as solely a matter of relative political advantage, and people who vote see through that bullshit now.
Thus, there's no consideration of "we need to make sure that all Americans are able to obtain timely preventive and therapeutic health care" and by what useful though perhaps different means we should go about doing so.
Republicans are actually (by this rhetoric) ceding that a valuable and attractive public good is being provided, which is why opposing it will hurt them politically.
Democrats favor our health insurance reforms so that people who don't have insurance, people who (for cost's sake) let little health problems to become big ones and then go to emergency rooms for treatment, and people with chronic diseases for whom acute care is not appropriate can lead healthier and more productive lives.
Republicans could favor those outcomes as well, and people would love them for achieving them, if they were inclined to do so, which 2001-2007 showed us they are not.
Republicans oppose this round of meaningful health care reform because people realize that Democrats are enacting it because the GOP never, ever would. Republicans oppose it because their preferred recipients are not the ones who will receive the benefit of this particular instance of "spend[ing] other people's money, [redistributing] wealth and enact[ing] new and enticing entitlement programs with taxpayer money." They much prefer entitlements that benefit Big Pharma while leaving a huge doughnut hole for seniors, or starting more wars to send taxpayer money to GOP-donating "independent" security companies and huge war conglomerates (Blackwater, Halliburton KBR).
Face it, this isn't principled opposition based on a reluctance to create ANY entitlement or to redsitribute tax money in ANY direction; they're just against the direction.
"They much prefer
"They much prefer entitlements that benefit Big Pharma while leaving a huge doughnut hole for seniors, or starting more wars to send taxpayer money to GOP-donating "independent" security companies and huge war conglomerates (Blackwater, Halliburton KBR)."
What doughnut hole? Seniors enjoy Medicare, which if I'm not mistaken, liberals remind us is a great health care system. The only ones threatening to cut Medicare are liberals, who need to find money to pay for their new health care reform.
And those big, bad Pharma companies create the drugs that save thousands if not millions of lives. God forbid they make a profit on their medicines and vaccines, which cost millions if not billions to develop and produce. If they are so bad, then I suggest you start buying your medication from the vaunted socialized Pharma companies in Cuba.
And as for starting more wars to send taxpayer money to GOP companies? Please. Afghanistan and Iraq were voted upon by Congress and enjoyed immense bipartisan support. I don't remember any Democratic Senator or Congressman standing up and declaring these wars were nothing more than profit-making ventures from companies like Halliburton. No, that tripe was uttered solely from the far left crowd.
"McGrubby you aren't a conservative, you are a libertarian!"
Not quite, but if Republicans keep rallying around projects like NCLB and whatnot, I may have to alter my official political title.
"Democrats favor our health
"Democrats favor our health insurance reforms so that people who don't have insurance, people who (for cost's sake) let little health problems to become big ones and then go to emergency rooms for treatment, and people with chronic diseases for whom acute care is not appropriate can lead healthier and more productive lives."
This is not what Democrats want and you know it. The goal is single payer. No more, no less.
MacGruber says: "What
MacGruber says: "What doughnut hole?"
Whoo-eee, talk about your ignorance of policy issues! Or really, talk about your ignorance of the wonders of Teh Google. The "doughnut hole," my ill-informed stranger, is that huge number of dollars seniors are expected to pay for their medications as part of the Republicans bastard child Medicare Part D prescription drug benefit. You know, the one they bribed a Congressman to pass and for which they threatened an SS actuary's job to keep him quiet about the program's true costs.
That doughnut hole.
I wonder if Strom Thurmond
I wonder if Strom Thurmond said the same thing about the Dixiecrats when the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts were enacted. If he had, he would have been right - we fortunately no longer have a party dedicated to preserving segregation. If health care passes, it's possible that in time the GOP will not be opposed to the concept of a safety net. It's already impossible to run against Social Security and Medicare - when it becomes impossible to run against socialized medicine, what's left for the Repubs? They either go full nativist (and rack up 20-30% of the vote, mostly in the South) or they become more like the GOP in the days when the bigots were Dixiecrats and Southern Dems and guys like Nelson Rockefeller, Ike and Edward Brooke were proud Republicans.
MacGruber says: "This is not
MacGruber says: "This is not what Democrats want and you know it. The goal is single payer. No more, no less."
First, I said that Democrats favor their own health insurance bills. They clearly do, just as Republicans clearly oppose them, and your claim that they do not is simply denial. I am not surprised; denial seems to be a very comfortable place for Republicans.
That's not to say that there are not some Democrats who would like to see a single payer system in place for all Americans. Many solutions are possible that might provide coverage very well. And as we all know, not one of them is being suggested or considered by Republicans.
But single payer is not what's happening NOW, in our actual Congress. What's happening is a very moderate plan to help shore up the insane gaps in our current creaky, basically WWII-vintage system of employer-provided coverage by implementing insurance exchanges, a small part of which will be an optional government-administered insurance plan.
I assume that you cannot actually read minds. So, if I am to measure the value of your surmise about what is in people's minds by the ignorance you have already demonstrated about other simple and common public policy issues, I assess it as kind of low.
Anonymous with Strom
Anonymous with Strom comment:
I believe that for now Republicans are focused on
(a) holding onto their dwindling base by becoming ever more racist, reactionary, and right wing (is there a slogan in there?) to maintain at least some small base of power
(b) gambling that utter disaster and financial or other meltdown will make is to that they can then ride a wave of dissatisfaction back into power.
I don't think that B is going to happen, and I think that A will just about kill them off. 2010 is out of reach for them to because of their massive UN-popularity today, and by 2012 we'll be seeing a bit of recovery. Once some jobs come back, there will be a lot fewer armed, seething idiots marching about.
BTW, 2010 looks really ugly economically. The pre-recession option ARMs and commercial real estate loans will be resetting next year, so wathc a bunch more banks fail and the current feverish RE-packaging of mortgage debt for sale to come crashing down. Again.
Update: Crap. I was wrong. They'll be resetting all the way into 2012. If the Congress doesn't do something about mortgage reform (like cramdown), we'll be fucked. Maybe even option B fucked.
Canadian conservatives in a box not of their making
It's at least arguable that conservative parties have done well in Canada coexistent with universal single payer medical insurance. Sure they wandered in the wilderness for many years, and sure the present Conservative government has been in power for four years of embarrassment as it lurches from bungle to bungle.
But the key point is this: no governing party in Canada would dare touch the public healthcare system. It would be the kiss of death because public support is so uniformly positive. It enjoys ultra third-rail status along with public pensions and active immigration policies.
So, hypothetically, were the US to institute single payer public insurance, and if it is as big a popular success as it has been elsewhere, the primitive conservative's dream of starving the organs of government into insignificance is effectively over. Add price controlled drug coverage and its a permanent part of people's lives. This public service can, it must be admitted, be effectively organized and run by private contractors for governments if that is electorally appealing at the moment. The size of the public service workforce may actually decrease as a result should the optics of local politics demand it.
Pretty soon though people, well pleased by the security and certainty public universal health insurance offers and by the end of saving for medical emergencies which should not be discounted as an attractant, will start asking why there are no universal daycare programs and why university costs so much, having realized that anti-government rhetoric is just so much self-serving bunkum coming from right wing troglodytes whose lavish lifestyles are threatened by fairness and equity in necessary and useful service provision.
Public universal care threatens the primitive conservative's agenda by demonstrating its pernicious falsity. It can be, and has been, the silver stake through the heart of neo-con dogma. Twist it while it's in your hand.
Republicans take over Congress!
GET THE FACTS BEHIND THE NEWS!
The Republican party has an opportunity to seize this moment and establish themselves as the leading party. As the discussions on healthcare reform continue it has become apparent that the public wants healthcare reform that will cover almost everyone and they want it at the lowest cost possible.
Republicans have come up with several good ideas, selling insurance across state lines, giving individuals the same tax breaks as those who get insurance thru their employers, tort reform to lessen Doctors insurance costs etc. These idea will help but are not sufficient for almost universal coverage at the lowest cost possible.
How to save BIG MONEY on healthcare REFORM!
Despite all the smoke and mirrors the best opinion shows that the public option saves money not costs money. The Urban Institute of Washington DC estimated that a gov’t insurance plan would save $224 to $400 billion over a period of 10 years. The private insurance co’s simply will not offer the low cost full coverage insurance plans that would reduce the subsidy for the uninsured and underinsured. The gov’t plan would. The Massachusetts experience using Heritage Foundation ideas with exchanges has covered over 97% of the people but at high cost. Yearly insurance plans run from $800 to $1,000 per month. The Congressional Budget Office has confirmed the money saving of public option plans by estimating that the cost of one of the proposed House plans would be reduced from $1.1 billion to only $800 billion, a saving of $300 billion over a 10 yr period with a gov’t plan. The polls show 60% of the public want a gov’t option.
There is another important step we can take to reduce cost by an estimated $40 billion annually or $400 billion over a 10 year period.
According to Drs. David Himmelstein and Steffie Woolhandler Physicians for a National Health Plan the public option misses at least 84 percent of the administrative savings available through a single payer, gov’t, healthcare plan. The public plan option would not do anything to streamline the administrative tasks (and costs) of hospitals, physicians offices, and nursing homes. They would still contend with multiple payers, and hence still need the complex cost tracking and billing apparatus that drives administrative costs. These unnecessary provider administrative costs account for the vast majority of bureaucratic waste. The Physician group research in California showed that now 31% of every health care $ was paid for administrative costs. This compared to 3% of Medicare administrative costs. The PNHP single payer information is available at Tel 312-782-6006, info@pnhp.org.
The Republicans will introduce a single payer healthcare reform bill with a gov’t plan. Many liberal democrats will go along. The Republicans will take control of the healthcare reform debate and give the public what it wants.
I'm confused. According to
I'm confused. According to Hatch, Democrats want to pass legislation that will be so popular amongst the people that everyone will decide to vote for them. And this is what? Devious? Sinister? I thought that passing popular legislation in an effort to get elected was the basis of democracy. Shows what I know.
Jealous Republicans?
If Orrin Hatch and other Republicans see the healthcare reform plan as potentially that popular with the public then why didn't they take advantage of their time in control of the three branches of gov't to produce their own healthcare reform which would insure the public loved them (and would thank them by keeping them in power forever)?
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