If Only Those Dead Indians Hadn't Been So Cowardly
| Mon Dec. 1, 2008 12:29 PM PST
Conservative bloggers, who blamed the Virginia Tech victims for not fighting back against the madman who attacked their school, are back for a second dip in the blame-the-victim cesspool. Here's John Hinderaker:
I wondered earlier today how a mere ten terrorists could bring a city of 19 million to a standstill. Here in the U.S., I don't think it would happen. I think we have armed security guards who know how to use their weapons, supplemented by an unknown number of private citizens who are armed and capable of returning fire. The Indian experience shows it is vitally important that this continue to be the case. This is a matter of culture as much as, or more than, a matter of laws.
Adam Serwer of TAP explains this attitude thusly:
This is a really strange and immature coping mechanism that manifests on the right in times of high profile tragedy. Rather than contemplate being a victim of a terrorist attack, the subject imagines him or herself as the star of a Jerry Bruckheimer movie. I'd say it's simple racism, but it really is fear masquerading as bravado, a cultural chauvinism that directs itself at other Americans as readily as it does at foreigners. It is the "short skirt" theory of violence. If it happened, you must have been asking for it.
Hm, yes. I have to say, I have never seen anyone who has actually faced combat criticize the inaction or ineffectualness of untrained, unarmed bystanders when in a life-or-death situations. (If this has happened somewhere, please feel free to correct me.) This thinking appears to be peculiar to a certain kind of conservative keyboard monkey who measures America's strength by the size of its military and considers himself (always a him) more patriotic than liberals because he is more likely to thank a veteran for his or her service, though he himself would never serve.
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Comments
Sterotype away, Johathan!
If you can define and pigeonhole people, then you don't need to deal with their arguments.
The key, once again, seems to be that the people were UNARMED.
India's government's arguments in favor of a disarmed populace seem to mirror our own civilian disarmament mentality.
www.abhijeetsingh.com/arms/india/
It produces helpless victims, and terrorists and publicity seeking "Blaze of Glory" mass murderers love nothing better than helpless victims.
That's a fact.
You need to deal with it.
"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-- George Orwell --
-- Socialist --
["This is what they do if you hand out guns.."]
Who handed out guns?
To whom did they hand them out?
When?
Where?
Was someone handing out guns to US citizens, to be used to prevent terrorism or mass murders? Because if they were, I must have missed my chance.
The only place I've ever heard of that happening was a few years back in Israel, where qualified citizens COULD check out military firearms from arsenals as part of their anti-terrorism program. To my knowledge, no airliners were crashed into Israeli buildings, and none of the guns were used to commit murders or other crimes.
You are wrong Jonny. A Police Officer in Frisco is trained and does not lack courage like the ones at the train station where the Irish newspaper reporter was and reported upon the unprofessional behavior of the public servants that are sworn to protect and serve. There is no excuse for their lack of professionalism. Even their best military commando's did not have night vission goggles. No need to worry in America. 20,000 Iraqi experienced trooops are being deployed here in America.
"I wondered earlier today how a mere ten terrorists could bring a city of 19 million to a standstill. Here in the U.S., I don't think it would happen" - John Hinderaker
"...but it really is fear masquerading as bravado" - Adam Serwer
As Dan pointed out, here in the US, not only did 19 guys (with box cutters) bring the nation to a standstill, but they threw the nation into the grip of fear for the past 7-1/2 years.
Hey Mr Gun Toter, it's so easy to Monday-morning quarterback, isn't it? It could also have been a lot worse if the populace had guns to shoot back. How does one distinguish a terrorist from a bystander shooting back? In a blink, everyone is shooting at everyone else. You may fantasize that you're Bruce Willis in Die Hard 17, but if you have a gun, you can bet the terrorists would be shooting YOU first.
The founders knew exactly what they were doing with the Second Amendment. I agree that in the two left coasts the terrorists would have a walk in the park - but try this in the South, the West, the hunting regions of the mid-west - the often disparaged "gun-rack, pick-up truck, good-ol boys" would have stopped this atrocity in minimum time. "When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns".
Why are we calling these brave Islamic freedom fighters 'terrorists?' We must understand the underlying social problems that cause them to strike out in seemingly brutal ways.
It really is our fault as a country. I hate to say it, but we really deserve this kind of attack.
Thankfully we now have an Obama presidency and can make the appropriate accommodations to the Islamic world which will buy us safety! It's all about listening to what the others side wants and feels and finding common ground!
Gary chants the hoplophobic mantra: It could also have been a lot worse if the populace had guns to shoot back. ... In a blink, everyone is shooting at everyone else.
Once again, we see repeated the HCI/Brady Campaign Scary Story about what would "certainly" happen if citizens were allowed to have guns.
This crap, predicting daily "shootouts on Main Street" was repeated and repeated and repeated back in the '80s & '90s, every time another State began considering concealed carry legislation.
To date, 48 States allow at least SOME citizens to carry concealed weapons, and to date, the "Main Street Shootout", "Dozens Die In Friendly Fire Incident" predictions have come true in exactly NONE of them.
And once again I'll point out the obvious to those who'll just go on ignoring it: Terrorists & Mass Murderers invariably choose locations where they have a high degree of certainty that their victims won't be able to shoot back, or fight back.
They may be crazy, but they're not as stupid as the "disarm the innocent" dupes.
Yes, 19 guys with box-cutters paralyzed The United States Government, but when Ordinary American Citizens knew what was going on, the Ordinary Citizens of Flight 93 quit doing what "the Experts" had always advised (cooperating with the criminal), got up and wrecked the terrorist's plans.
The passengers paid no more than they would have if they'd kept their seats, but they without doubt saved the lives of perhaps hundreds of their fellow innocents on the ground, and denied the terrorists what they wanted.
And the terrorists haven't tried that one again, have they?
Please DO keep in mind that many Liberals believe in the wisdom of the 2nd Amendment.
Here are a few 2nd Amendment organizations & web sites comprised of folks who aren't your Usual Suspects:
www.armedliberal.com/
(Liberal oriented)
www.theliberalgunclub.com/
(Liberal oriented)
www.pinkpistols.org/index2.html
(Gays)
h_t_t_p_:_/_/bluesteeldemocrats.blogspot.com/
(Democrats)
www.jpfo.org
(Jews)
..and my personal favorite:
h_t_t_p_:_/_/guntotingliberal.com/
Gun-toter, I did NOT chant any mantra. I simply pointed out the POSSIBILITY (read my entry) that it COULD have been worse - A possibility you ignored by chanting the pro-NRA mantra that a gun-toting public solves the terrorist problem.
Oh, I didn't ignore the prediction-posing-as-a-possibility, though perhaps that would be the best way to deal with something that's proven never to happen, no matter how many times gun-controllers like the Brady Campaign & their advocates predict it.
I pointed out that it's not proven to happen where civilians are armed, and that's hardly ignoring it.
Funny, but I don't see NRA anywhere on my suggested reading list... So why erect that particular straw-man?
Socialist and Oracle, George Orwell made a very estute point as to working-class people's right to own arms being the very symbol of democracy.
Consider it's import, or ignore it at your peril, but keep in mind that even a total prohibition on civilian gun ownership for 30+ years hasn't made Jamaicans any safer.
They're #3 in the world in homicides per capita.
Gun Toter,
Nice how you characterize Gary's statement as "crap" prediction while expecting *your* prediction to be accepted as Gospel truth. Yes I know, there is no evidence that his "prediction" is accurate even though 48 states allow SOME (emphasis yours) to carry weapons. But that is no reason to expect that *your* prediction would be accurate is MOST citizens were to carry weapons; like they did in the "Old West".
And it's actually funny that you should bring up flight 93 to support your argument. Yes those brave citizens fought back against the terrorists and wrecked their plans. But they did so *without* any guns.
Regarding the Second Amendment which reads "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.", it could certainly be argued that the right "to keep and bear arms" is not an inalienable right, but merely necessary for a "well regulated Militia". How many of those licensed to carry firearms in those 48 states are members of "a well regulated Militia"?
Nice how you characterize Gary's statement as "crap" prediction...
Seems pretty accurate to me, given it's a matter of record that despite 20+ years of such predictions, it hasn't happened once. Or do you know of such a case occurring which the media, for some reason, didn't shout from the rooftops?
Yes, I empahsized that because a few States, such as California, will license rich jewel merchants, who probably have more security around them than Dick Cheney, while leaving the poor who live in crime-ridden neighborhoods without the State's "permission" to protect their own lives in a similarly effective manner. I emphasized it because it's ludicrous, unjust, unfair and does not afford equal treatment under the law for all citizens.
At this time, 37 States have "shall issue" laws, under which any person not specifically prohibited due to criminal record, mental incompetence, etc., will be granted a license. And Gary's scenario still doesn't happen. So I'm comfortable calling that Scary Story exactly what it's proven to be: Crap.
...while expecting *your* prediction to be accepted as Gospel truth.
...
no reason to expect that *your* prediction...
Strawman Alert!!
Where did I say any such thing about "my prediction" being Gospel Truth? Imply any such expectation?
But most importantly, Where, exactly, is my "prediction"?
And it's actually funny that you should bring up flight 93 to support your argument. Yes those brave citizens fought back against the terrorists and wrecked their plans. But they did so *without* any guns.
You're exactly right! The passengers on flight 93 were armed on a par with the terrorists! Shoes, belts, pieces of carry on luggage could all have been used as weapons. And when citizens are armed on a par with the terrorists, the terrorists LOSE.
However, that clearly wasn't the case in India. There was a great disparity of force in that case.
Thanks for helping to make the point.
...it could certainly be argued that the right "to keep and bear arms" is not an inalienable right...
Yes. It could be, and it has been so argued.
Need I remind you of which argument held sway in the Nation's highest court, thereby becoming the official interpretation of the Highest Law of the Land?
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