House Lawmakers Fight for the F-22
This is not a good sign for Obama's big push to rein in wasteful defense spending: the House Armed Services committee has made an early move to restore funding for the F-22 fighter jet. Gates wants to finish production on four more planes and then end the program. (Its flaws are many: here's a useful rundown.) Instead, the committee inserted $369 million into this year's defense authorization bill to pay for parts for another dozen F-22s. This is basically a sneaky way to commit the government to 12 planes while putting off the bill until later: The F-22 officially goes for $143 million each—and the real figure is more like $350 million when you add in things like maintenance and training. So $369 million won't even come close to covering their total cost.
The vote was very close (31-30), and there's still a long way to go—both the House and Senate have to finish marking up the bill, and then negotiators for both chambers will haggle over the details in conference. Still, by coming out so early in defense of the F-22, House lawmakers are sending a pretty blunt signal to the White House that the Gates budget is going to get a bumpy ride. We'll be covering this very closely next week in a special feature on the defense budget—watch this space.
UPDATE: Barney Frank is introducing an amendment to remove the F-22 funding.
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Comments
The Threat and the Response
I posted this comment on your link to the "problems" the F-22 has. I since made a few corrections (China, versus North Korea).
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I love these pieces that leave out so much operationally and technically relevant information and chide the DOD and the USAF for developing the F-22 aircraft in the first place. Your linked video needs to base its argument on factual DATA and not just passionate anti-war rhetoric.
The facts are this. The F-22 was designed and developed to provide air supremacy (now air dominance) by neutralizing ANY current or projected air threat. The threats used to determine how much air dominance is enough were in fact emerging and projected soviet threat aircraft, some of which have since been fielded.
The F-22 continually proves in realistic warfighting exercises to do just what it was designed to do. If one believes that national defense is strictly the defense of our borders, then read no further. However, there are those that believe in some way the US should assist in defending other allies and our national interests, That said, anyone who has followed the Chinese threat to Taiwan is clearly aware of their numbers and capabilities of air and surface threats eventually coming Southwards toward Taiwan. This is but one example where the F-22 would make the largest contribution in AAW (Anti-Air Warfare) of any single platform.
1) The F-22 is a very low observable airframe making it extremely difficult for enemy aircraft and ground based radars to detect or target.
2) Its’ sensor suite allow it a “first look, first shot, first kill” advantage against any existing or projected threat well into the 2020’s. In fact, the projected, kill ratio is absolutely unmatched in any way, shape or form by any other US, western fighter, or threat aircraft either fielded today or on the drawing table (including JSF which still pales in comparison).
3) The F-22’s cruise altitude and cruise speed allow it unparalleled weapon employment speed thereby dramatically increasing a weapon’s effective lethality range.
4) All of the above result in kill ratios that, while they vary from exercise to exercise, range from infinite (Zero losses) down to paltry 100-to-1. FYI, these ratios are achieved against 4th generations US fighter aircraft that are STILL no slouches.
Yes, these exchange ratios seem lofty. However, these results aren't those manufactured by politicians, or engineers. They are based on operationally realistic exercises with real aircraft, real sensors, and of course simulated weapons (which are the same across all other aircraft).
Factor that into your cost equation and you now have a bargain because the F-22 can kill 100-$3.6 million aircraft before a single loss. While $360 million seems insane at a glance, base on the above data, I’d call it a bargain bang for buck weapon system by any measure.
Backtracking Obama
Yes, and we have so much extra cash lying around. Let's build as many as we can before the unsuspecting public realizes the DOD is wasting more of our money. If I kept spending money I didn't have I would be in prison. How DOES the government get around this?
Wouldn't THAT be something!
You metion China as the 'threat' that the F-22 was intended to defeat.
Now wouldn't that be something! The Chinese having their planes shot down by an American Plane paid for WITH MONEY THAT WE HAD TO BORROW FROM THEM!
Maybe that's our 'secret' deficit reduction plan, eh? Just Nuke Em?
I'm a Veteran son of a USAF CMSGT - so I DO care. Am I sounding like a 'Socialist'?
JimRinX
No - You just sound like an
No - You just sound like an idiot.
The F-22 IS intended to defeat the Chinese air force - and it can do that handily, for now.
We also need to take into account the situation in 30 years. Maybe China will be a democracy by then - or maybe it will be an expansionist totalitarian state with advanced military aircraft.
Better to have the F-22 and not need it rather than to need the F-22 and not have it.
Save the Raptor!
wbinmd makes a lot of good points!
I'm glad that we may yet save the f-22. There seems to be an assumption amongst a certain portion of the populace that if there is a less expensive option (read: f-35), that we should kill the f-22. As far as I'm concerned, however, that only shows that the person who would condemn the raptor doesn't know the difference between the ATF & JSF programs.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200903/air-force
"Now we have a choice. We can stock the Air Force with the expensive, cutting-edge F‑22—maintaining our technological superiority at great expense to our Treasury. Or we can go back to a time when the cost of air supremacy was paid in the blood of men like Rodriguez."
If we want to "maintain our technological edge" why not do it while doing something worthwhile - like a two-stage earth-to-orbit space plane?
We should never have bothered with this CRAP - if only because the F-15E has NEVER been defeated in Aerial Combat! Only the Su-37 would stand a chance!
It should be the S-47 ('S' for Spaceship; 47 for the X-47) that were building. With easy, cheap access to Orbit; the Wealth of the Solar System would then be at our fingertips!
There's enough Gold in just ONE of those M-class Asteroids to put GOLD COINS in everyones pockets!
JimRinX
You obviously don't know our own aircraft capabilities, let alone threat aircraft and their capabilities.
The F15E is primarily a STRIKE aircraft with some A/A capabilities. It is the F15C which is the air superiority fighter you would be referring to.
That said, our strategy is to win air campaigns and win them decisively, something we did NOT do as early as Cope India 2004. There, we were "awakened" by India's Su30s and their tactics versus F15C equipped with APG-63 non AESA. Their systems and tactics caught us by surprise, something that can be offset with more advanced F15s.
However, to achieve the kill ratios determined by doctrine, the F22 is the only current (and projected aircraft for that matter) in our inventory that can effectively deal with the entire spectrum of A/A threat aircraft. This from an unbiased NAVY strike fighter subject matter expert. So, leave this subject to experts.
As to your desire for additional space exploration, I'm all for access to the "wealth" of the Earth's orbit, but you act as though we can just jump off from there and galavant around from planet to planet. We are a ways off from that. In the mean time, care to sacrifice this lovely little $1T health care bill working it's way through congress for such scientific endeavors?
Wait just a minute!
Why do we NEED any more aircraft with human pilots? It's already been proven that MUCH, SO MUCH more can be accomplished with remotely controlled aircraft. SO much more, that funding R&D and BUYING more new piloted fighter jets simply makes no sense at all. Keeping the current crop of aircraft "useful" is a huge challenge to all our military aircraft maintenance personnel, without diverting funds away from sorely needed maintenance personnel's recruitment, training, and parts; which is exactly what will happen if we keep funding projects that are simply and literally obsolete while still on the drawing board (okay, computer screen). Look, I've had it with the leeching of the Military Industrial Establishment that Ike warned us about, and this current F-22 "Raptor" BS is just more of the same kind of BS LBJ's old Lady Bird got ludicrously wealthy dining on in Vietnam. Didn't the rest of you get enough with the last 8 years of pandering to the MIE and using it's wares to kill innocent human beings? Wake up for God's sake!
UAVs vs F-22
ZDuff,
true UAVs are being used in growing numbers for AIR-TO-GROUND missions. Even the UCAVs (Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles) currently under development will not have suitable AIR TO AIR capabilities, certainly nothing to match the F-22. These AIR-TO-AIR UAVs are still years away. In the mean time, if you by into my initial statement (that the US should, in part, help defend our allies and vital interests), the argument for the F-22 stands.
And remember, the F-22 is deployed TODAY. The R&D that remains is for upgrades and not for the development of a new aircraft.
In terms of training your argument falls apart completely. Don't you think those who operator and UAV need training? Please go do a little more thorough research.
F-22
And even though the military keeps pouring the United States resources in these sophiticated weapons systems, our soldiers are losing their legs to cheap explosives in soup cans and suitcases. The Cold War is over. WE WON! QUIT BUILDING COLD WAR WEAPON SYSTEMS. Yeah, and $350+ mil is really a bargain!
Did you read my comments
The F-22, while designed to counter cold war threats, is currently the premier aircraft that that can defend (pretty much with impunity) from threats like China when they decide to aim their air and naval forces toward Taiwan.
Do some research on that threat and check the math before making comments like,
"WE WON! QUIT BUILDING COLD WAR WEAPON SYSTEMS. Yeah, and $350+ mil is really a bargain!"
The questions that are always asked before development of any weapon system are: 1) What is the next conflict we are likely to be involved in. 2) What are the enemy force's capabilities to counter our application of force.
Unfortunately, our forces have been involved in not a war, but a peace keeping kind of mission while the Iraqis get their heads out of their asses, and they become proficient enough to defend themselves. When we took down the Saddam's forces our casualties were minimal. We had the technology to and the forces who were trained to do so. Our forces were never trained to sit idle and go out and win the "hearts and minds" of Iraqis. We reverted back to LBJs doctrine applied in Vietnam.
To train our troops (and equip them) against a force like the insurgency takes time. It also takes the stomach to deal with the threat in any way shape or form necessary and unfortunately, that results in civilian casualties; something our wonderful media is so fond of pointing out.
On the other hand our leadership genuinely want the Iraqis to succeed and they've resolved to make every attempt (at the cost of our men and women in uniform) to do so "delicately." I believe in the long run, the strategy will be seen as successful, albeit agonizingly slow.
Iraq and Afghanistan are but one type of conflict however involving asymmetric warfare. The US military has sufficient reason to believe the conventional threat is still valid, hence weapon systems like the F-22. I stand by my argument: If you believe the US should stand by it's allies and assist in their defense, the F-22 is a necessary system in a complex system of systems approach to neutralizing the projected threat.
O.K., I agree; this is a crapy thing, but....
...how, just exactly how, are those who make their living making this Dog going to survive, my Labor Minded Friends?
I hear, and agree, with this kind of a thing all the time - but no one ever answers that question!
Damned if we do, damned if we don't! How, oh how, do we get to that 'Star Trek' world of no money? Even Rodenberry had to capitulate, and give up the 'Utopian Dream Future' stuff - post next-gen - and invent Cold (or is that Gold?) Pressed Latinum (???)!!!
We need to make some Big Changes! FUNDAMENTAL Changes!
JimRinX
Been There, Done That, Got The T-Shirt.
Looks like wbinmd and ockraz desperately need a cold shower from someone who's actually worked in DOD, with real combat aircraft, at a real airbase - the Naval Air Warfare Center in Patuxent River, Maryland - and spoken with several graduates of the US Naval Test Pilot School located there, including one who went on to become (and may well still be) the Chief Test Pilot of the F-35/JSF program. As for wbinmd and ockraz's arguments in favor of the F-22, I've seen them all before and they not only don't add up - they're not even relevant.
Sitting on my bookshelf at home is a copy of a large glossy promo brochure printed back in the '70s to gin up public and Congressional support for a plane that was just as controversial in its day, from a defense program that history shows was saved only because the Iranians bought a bunch of 'em just before the fall of the Shah. The brochure is entitled "The F-14 Tomcat Owner's Manual," and it's chock full of charts and diagrams with circles and arrows, making exactly the same kind of claims and analysis that wbinmd presents, AND NONE OF IT MATTERED. Because in spite of its brief glory against the vastly outgunned Libyans, and getting the Hollywood propaganda treatment in "Top Gun," sustained combat operations in Iraq during both the 1991 and 2003 campaigns proved beyond doubt that the F-14 was a HANGAR QUEEN, totally incapable of matching the operational tempo of squadrons flying F-15s, F-16s, F/A18s, and even the 1950s-vintage A-6. Why? Because all of the beeping, chirping, buzzing, and squawking gizmos the Tomcat uses to track, target, and engage all those potential Soviet adversaries at once, plus the structural compromises that cramming all that stuff into the plane inevitably demand, resulted in dozens of hours of maintenance downtime for every hour actually flying in harm's way. And this is the exact reason why the F-14 was rather abruptly and unceremoniously retired in the aftermath of "Mission, Accomplished."
But there's more - a couple of dirty little secrets within the Pentagon of which F-22 apologists are either blissfully unaware or deliberately ignorant. First, although most informed observers know that the reported "cost" of a military aircraft vastly overstates the actual price of the parts and labor required to construct it, the sad truth is that it also tends to overstate the parts, labor, research, and development costs of the pieces that'll ever get used. To put it another way, the price tag that everybody's arguing about includes billions for weapons/communication/targeting systems that our combat pilots/RIOs/NFOs/WSOs will end up simply turning off in the interest of their own sanity. Task overload has been a recurring problem in advanced military aircraft since the Vietnam years, so it makes absolutely no sense to continue investing vast sums equipping planes with gee-whiz technology that counters some theoretical future threat when the distracting alarms and dead weight generated by all those expensive doo-dads - which always make such great press release material - can only be harmful to real-world combat effectiveness in the wars we're actually fighting here and now.
The second dirty secret is the fact that surprisingly little military hardware nowadays passes meaningful combat survival testing prior to the procurement decision. Under the logic of Pentagon contracting this actually makes a twisted kind of sense - few Program Officers want to invest a big chunk of their career shepherding a multibillion-dollar project through the bureaucracy only to find that their baby can be brought down by a kid with a Kalashnikov. And as the complexity and cost of projects like the F-22 continue to escalate, the likelihood of such testing declines even further and the interest of the taxpayer, not to mention the warrior in the field, gets lost in the game. Several years ago, Air & Space/Smithsonian magazine did a feature article that reinforced this very point while describing the struggles of a group inside the Pentagon that was pushing for mandatory destructive live-fire testing of all systems. One of the case studies, the US Marine Corps' AV-8B Harrier Jet, caught my eye as it had been an active flight test project during my years at Patuxent. The hovering British plane gained fame with its successes in combat against Argentina in the 1982 Falklands War, which led to the Marines acquiring an American version made under license from Hawker. Several years later this group did, against great resistance, manage to get an AV-8B subjected to their proposed testing regimen, and the article summarized the results perfectly in the reaction of one of the aircraft's original Program Managers - that if the Harrier's vulnerability to opposing fire had been known, the Marine Corps never would've bought it.
Finally, military history repeatedly shows that technological superiority ain't all it's cracked up to be. Rugged and reliable weapons, deployed in quantity and used intelligently, beat sophistication every time. The most famous examples are from World War II, starting with General Chennault and the American Volunteer Group (better known as the "Flying Tigers") successfully employing the "obsolete" P-40 against the Japanese in China. Nazi tanks outclassed their Allied counterparts in almost every way, yet the Germans still feared General Patton (and lost the war, too, btw, despite also deploying fighter jets, swept wings, and ballistic missiles way before anybody else). And of course there's Vietnam, where all the technology and bomb tonnage in the world couldn't affect the outcome - interested readers should consult the late Col. David Hackworth's memoir, "About Face," for the best discussion of Pentagon procurement priorities, and the REAL reasons for America's failure in Vietnam, that I've ever seen. Unfortunately for wbinmd and ockraz's arguments, the fundamental laws of Economics apply to combat as well, and it ain't just the peaceniks thinkin' 'bout cheaper alternatives, baby. Witness General Chuck Yeager's long advocacy of Northrop's F-20 Tigershark fighter. Witness the German General Heinz Guderian's discussion in his memoir, "Panzer Leader," of how his forces were handicapped by atrocious procurement decisions, including some made years before the war. Witness General (and later President) Eisenhower, who not only warned of the Military/Industrial Complex, but also said that the problem with Defense spending was hollowing out from within what you're trying to protect from without. And witness Colonel Hackworth (rumored to be the inspiration for the "napalm in the morning" guy in "Apocalypse Now"), who was one of the few voices during the '91 Gulf War to ignore the rah-rah over the Patriot Missile and publicly question the wisdom of spending millions of dollars per shot trying to knock down $250,000 Scuds whose guidance system was so primitive their targeting was essentially random. Certainly the Chinese, who manufacture mass quantities of everything for everybody these days, must've watched that situation with keen interest. Returning to the issue at hand, there's no doubt in my mind that Hackworth would put the F-22 solidly within his vividly descriptive category of "wonder junk."
I rest my case.
who needs a shower?
For the record, I've over 21 years of aircraft systems design, development, test & evaluation, and acquisition experience IN naval aviation, the last 11 AT Pax River Maryland. Over the course of these years, I've worked very closely with developmental test, operational test AND Fleet aircrew. All are experts in their respective fields and there is a difference. Development test pilots test systems to validate their specified performance. Operational test pilots test the systems in operationally relevant scenarios. Fleet aircrew focus on executing tactics as defined by NSAWC and MAWTS-1 to counter threats. They become the experts on these tactics and the limitations aircraft systems have and the need to feed these shortfalls back into new/improved systems development and TTP changes. There's far more, but you get the point. I'm not in need of any cold shower. I have access to and work with the experts. As for the systems themselves, I would be one expert among many.
All that aside, your arguments come with their own problems.
1) The F14 was designed in the 60's and served our country well through it's retirement. It was as you note costly to maintain due to parts aging, obscelecence and the overall swing-wing design. However, for Fleet Air Defence it WAS the best aircraft at the time for the task.
Tempo is a big deal obviously and the 4th Gen fighters like Hornets and Super Hornets are far better to provide round the clock operations. However, the performance limitations of Hornets versus even Tomcats were and still are starting. The bottom line is we comprimised when we built the Hornet/Super Hornet. it does many things well. However, it's pure Counter Air Defense capabiliites AND JSFs for that matter are just that...a comprimise.
2) Your second argument about "excessive doo dads" that aircrew simply turn off is outdated stemming from the era's you cite. For today's aircraft, the excessive doo dad argument is blatantly false. There are some systems aircrew rely on more heavily. And yes, single and tandem tactical aircraft do have extensive pilot vehicle interfaces that require mastery and currency. In short, you are underestimating today's aircrew and their abilities to assimilate information real time.
3) No onto quantity versus quality. Take your F20 Tiger Shark example. Let's drop the F22 and procure an all F20 wing. Let's by a shit load of them. Now we have to operate, maintain, and um....man them. OBTW, that all cost $$. Most important, is that these aircraft would be dropped like flies by any meaningful threat aircraft fielded today. How would you like to be the SecDef that made the decision to by F20s when our men and women start coming home in body bags?
Sure there needs to be a balance of technology versus numbers. But for Air Dominance F22s are handily defeating everything they encounter....period. Nothing else will achieve the desired ratios today, nor tomorrow.
I stand behind my original argument and rest MY case.
You have no case... And all
You have no case...
And all your talk about being a top Navy test pilot is bull$hit.
The F-14 did it's job spectacularly well for thirty years - The Soviets never went after a carrier with bombers and cruise missiles because they knew the F-14/Phoenix combination would chop them to pieces before they could get within a hundred miles.
If you were really in the Navy you would know that F-18E pilot's acknowledge that the older F-14D is still superior to the F-18E in the long-range interception role.
The F-22 has a similar advantage over the Su-35.
If we have the F-22 we won't have to fight china because they won't dare to challenge us. If we don't have the F-22 we may have to fight china with F-15s which would mean we might LOSE.
Your uninformed opinion is dangerously irresponsible.
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